Physical Attractiveness in Relationships

physical-attractiveness-relationshipsLet’s try this again — slightly revised.

How important is the physical appearance of a partner or potential partner? Do levels of physical attractiveness play a small, moderate, or large part in determining who you would consider a potential mate or how happy you are with your current partner?

Physical attraction is an important factor in my choice of mates. I can not date, let alone have a long-term relationship with someone I don’t find physically attractive. Other aspects such as mental compatibility and general personality are taken into account, but the physical appearance of a person is as strong an influence.

It is widely believed that physical attractiveness plays a key role in the creation of new relationships. The way a person looks is often the first thing you notice about them, long before you learn of their personality and character, and their looks can be the reason you initiate contact or not. This idea has been given more weight due to studies with results that support.

Generally in new relationships, partners are matched in terms of relative physical attractiveness. And the more attractive their partner is, the more satisfied a person is in their relationships. Men place a higher significance on the physical attractiveness of their partner, than do women although women still count the physical appearance of their partner as important. Overall, physical attractiveness has a positive effect in new relationships — the higher it is, relatively speaking, the better both partners rate their relationship.

But what happens when a relationship is no longer new? Does physical appearance still play such a crucial part in the stability and happiness of an established relationship such as marriage?

It turns out that physical attractiveness is still connected to levels of happiness and stability in marriage, but not nearly as much as in less established relationships. Also, the importance of physical attraction, and its effects, differ based on gender.

In one study, husbands who were rated as more attractive than their wives by outsiders tended to be less satisfied with their marriage, and behaved negatively in their marriages. In contrast, in marriages where wives were rated as more attractive than their husbands, both partners behaved positively and were more happy. There was no noticeable effect if both partners were similarly attractive.

Taken together, studies on physical attractiveness in relationships and marriage suggest several ideas. One idea is that physical attractiveness is  highly important in new relationships, and less so in established relationships. Yet, physical attractiveness remains as important for men in terms of satisfaction in their relationships.

One thing which is certain is that physical attraction, and a partner’s physical attractiveness, is significant to the health and happiness of a relationship.

How important is physical attractiveness in your relationships? Was physical appeal a major reason for your attraction to your partner or past partner?

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84 thoughts on “Physical Attractiveness in Relationships

  1. Like I said elsewhere, I do think physical attraction is important. At least, it is to me. I see nothing wrong about it, since I don’t think “physical attraction” equals “going after conventionally attractive hot guys only”. If he’s hot to me, I don’t care what others think (in fact, sometimes is easier if other women don’t see him as hot, for the obvious reasons).

    But by all means, I have to be attracted to him. Sometimes, the attraction makes a difference between being friends and being romantically involved. I’ve tried dating a nice guy I wasn’t really attracted to (he was good looking, just not my type) and it didn’t work out. Something was missing.

    I might be a physical and a visual person. I like to be hugged, kissed, touched, and, shoot me, I like to have sex. And you need to be physically attracted to a person for that. You need to anticipate it when you look at him across the room. Once again, maybe I do value physical connection more than the average (female) person (though I suspect it’s not it).

    None of this says character isn’t important. In the long run, it IS more important, because it’s easier to find a guy you like physically than the one that matches you in character and interests. So nobody should stick to a “hawt” person they have nothing in common with- but this is obvious.

    On the other hand, it is important to me that the guy finds me attractive, too. I’ve been with a guy who didn’t find me attractive and who dated me because he was bored he thought I was a nice person, but it wasn’t a positive experience. Especially for a girl who has somewhat low self esteem when it comes to physical appearance. No, I need a guy to be attracted to me. It’s much, much better that way.

    So far so good, right? Right. But. I must admit this shouldn’t be taken to extremes. Nobody should settle for an attractive person they are not compatible with. Men often make this mistake. But women do it, too. In a way, it happened to me. My first serious bf was good looking (and almost universally accepted as such), 6’3″ tall, dark, etc. Played basketball in high school. You get the idea. The type of a guy that never pays attention to girls like me. Riiight.

    Well, he did, and the first month or so of the relationship was good. The rest, not so much. We weren’t compatible at all, not even on “superficial” level, such as sexual (once we got enough experience to understand it). The only thing we both liked, I think, were animals. But it’s hardly enough. It was a very, very bad experience that left me depressed and it took me years to get over that relationship. I’ve learned a lot from my mistakes, so it wasn’t useless, and in a way it helped me gain a new perspective on relationships and gain some self-esteem. But it was also quite bad.

  2. Physical attractiveness isn’t really important to me either, judging from my past relationships. I’ve dated girls that were highly attractive, and others that weren’t all that attractive. My tendency is to care a lot about looks before I know a girl, and then they fade from priority once I start talking with someone. One girl I had dated was so definitely unattractive that Jasmin still teases me about it! But, in my defense, she is a really cool person, and probably the only girl I’ve dated that I was able to end on amicable terms with.

    But on the other hand (besides different fingers) I agree with Mira that I’d want someone to be attracted to me if we’re dating. Since most girls seem to agree that I’m “good-looking” this hasn’t been a problem, but I still have kind of a complex about it since I used to be considered extremely unattractive to most people, both in looks and personality.

    I guess in the end physical attractiveness matters only insofar as we attach importance to it. For me it’s middling important, but for others it might be more (or less). I think for men and women it’s different KINDS. Men want stereotypical “hot” features, but women seem to want very specific things. Either muscles, or a chiseled chin, or certain eyes, or certain hair, or very tall, or not too tall, lighter skin, or darker skin, bone structure (I always laugh when girls say they want a guy with good bone structure, it sound so incongruous to the situation), and of course, body hair/no body hair. So when it comes to defining how many women view attractiveness, you need to be more specific than you need to be for many men.

  3. Now, on the difference in attractiveness with partners… I don’t know what to say. I think it’s all cultural. I mean, we all know that it’s much more socially acceptable when an average, or ugly guy dates a gorgeous woman, than vice-versa. (Just look at the comments Cillian Murphy and Cuba Gooding Jr get, though in Cuba’s case it might be race related, too).

    But nobody judges that harshly Monica Bellucci and Vincent Cassel (now, I find him strangely attractive, but she is considered one of the most beautiful women in the world). It’s simply seen as more acceptable. (Because of the old (mis)conception that men seek for an attractive partner, while women seek for a great character, or a “guy that makes them laugh”).

  4. (I am bored and spamming ;) )

    In case somebody doesn’t know what they look like, here are all three couples I mentioned:

    Cillian Murphy and his wife:

    Cuba and his wife:

    And Monica and Vincent:

    Or Seal and Heidi Klum, for that matter:

    (ok, Cuba is not much of a looker himself, imo, but he is still considered more attractive than her, due to celebrity status, I guess)

  5. Mira,

    “attraction makes a difference between being friends and being romantically involved.”

    Definitely. It’s much easier to move from friendship to relationship if I’m attracted to a guy physically. It’s great too, because the mental compatibility is already there and you already like them as a person, so you have a solid base.

    “I might be a physical and a visual person.”

    Same. Actually, I might be physical, visual, and mental. I love talking to my partners about subjects we both like.

    “I like to be hugged, kissed, touched, and, shoot me, I like to have sex.”

    Why would I shoot you? :)

    “maybe I do value physical connection more than the average (female) person (though I suspect it’s not it).”

    I might value the physical more than the average woman, but I don’t think so. I just think women are shy to say they care a lot about a person’s appearance. They don’t want to seem shallow, they’re taught to value things besides looks, and they would like people to judge them for more than their appearance so they try to do so for others. Fortunately, I don’t really care about any of those things. Lol.

    “it is important to me that the guy finds me attractive, too.”

    Same, but I don’t think I’ve ever been in a position where I was with a guy who didn’t find me attractive. Because guys that don’t find me attractive, just don’t date me.

    “Now, on the difference in attractiveness with partners… I don’t know what to say. I think it’s all cultural.”

    I agree that it has a lot to do with what people are taught to value.

  6. Mira,

    “(I am bored and spamming ;) )”

    Lol. It’s not spam. Pictures definitely help to get points across.

    As far as Cuba and his wife, and Seal and Heidi Klum, there needs to be a study done on how race affects perceptions of partners’ physical attractiveness. If there isn’t one already (I’ll search for it).

    I’d agree that Cillian is better looking than his wife, but he seems happy (might not be though, if the study is any indication). Vincent isn’t terrible-looking, but he has a “greaser” look. He’s probably happy to have Monica. :)

  7. Zek,

    It doesn’t really matter whether the person is considered attractive, but if you are attracted to her. I think many people- and permit me to say it, often male people- confuse what is considered “universally hot” with the inner attractiveness. There are guys who are personally attracted to features that are not considered attractive, such as chubby girls, or girls taller than them, or girls with small breasts, or girls that, well, don’t remove much of their body hair. But due to the societal pressure, they- especially when they’re young- are ashamed to admit it in fear of being ridiculed, so they go after what is considered generically hot.

    Women have an easier time here, because they’re allowed (and sometimes they are encouraged) to be attracted to guys who might not be conventionally handsome. I am first to admit generic cute guys don’t do much to me (though I do appreciate a bit of a baby face).

    I still have kind of a complex about it since I used to be considered extremely unattractive to most people, both in looks and personality.

    I believe you were one of those guys who were average looking kids, maybe a late bloomer (?), but who turned out to be good looking when matured. But by the time you matured you were already being teased about your physical appearance (as a kid) so you kind of never learned to funny appreciate yourself as an attractive guy. Which sucks for your self esteem, perhaps, but, imo, this situation can only be beneficial in the long run. (People who are so secure they’re oh, so hot, are usually difficult to deal with).

    (I always laugh when girls say they want a guy with good bone structure, it sound so incongruous to the situation),

    Ha! I never thought about the double meaning. It’s the language difference, I think.

    Oh, and you might be right about the different ways men and women see attractiveness. Men are seen as more shallow, but once the main features he likes are ok, he wouldn’t reject a woman as ugly just because she, I don’t know, have large feet or something. Women, on the other hand, often find perfectly attractive guys unattractive just because one of the features isn’t “right” (if he’s of the “wrong” height, if he has the “wrong” amount of body hair, etc).

  8. zek,

    “Physical attractiveness isn’t really important to me either, judging from my past relationships.”

    Interesting.

    “I agree with Mira that I’d want someone to be attracted to me if we’re dating. Since most girls seem to agree that I’m “good-looking” this hasn’t been a problem”

    You’re cute! That’s what I think when I see you. Cute and sweet. :)

    ‘Men want stereotypical “hot” features, but women seem to want very specific things.’

    Hmmm… I think I like both. Even though many of the classic hot guys like Brad Pitt, George Clooney, etc., don’t do it for me, I’ve been said to date “pretty boys”. It’s certainly important how all of a man’s features work together, but the individual features are also important.

  9. Yes, It’s important.

    BUT, not nearly as important as his ability to be able to provide. I can settle for an lesser attractive man (but not by far).

    I make my own money sure, but my man got to be able to provide for me if needed. Old fasion? might be. I do come off as a gold digger in this post but whatever. I’m not going back to a shack :P


    Cuba and his wife
    Seal and Heidi Klum

    Them white women are stealing all of our good men.

  10. Nkosazana,

    I can completely understand why you would want a guy that can provide. If you’re taught or otherwise learned to value security in life (by not having it), you’ll seek that.

    “Them white women are stealing all of our good men.”

    *snorts*

    If those are the “good men”…

  11. Miss Alee, you’re back! That was quick. I thought it would be months.

    I definitely want to be physically attracted to a man that I’m dating. Very interesting that folks brought up the fact that they really wanted the person that they date to be attracted to them. I think that I just assumed that if a man asks you out he is physically attracted to you.

  12. Alee,

    As far as Cuba and his wife, and Seal and Heidi Klum, there needs to be a study done on how race affects perceptions of partners’ physical attractiveness. If there isn’t one already (I’ll search for it).

    I agree. But since they are the same type of a couple (black man, white woman), and both men are average looking, I think the main difference is the fact one woman is considered super hot and another is considered plain, to say the least. (Now, I never got the hype around Heidi Klum, and I don’t think Cuba’s wife is “ugly”, but that’s another thing).

    I know nothing about Cuba, and I am not really a fan, but since they’re high school sweethearts, I feel bad when people trash talk about her (or him- she’s hardly a trophy wife, they were together even before he was famous).

    I’d agree that Cillian is better looking than his wife, but he seems happy (might not be though, if the study is any indication).

    They’ve been together for years (since 1996, I believe, when he was 20). She is also a bit older than him. He rarely talks about his personal life in interviews, but he did mention her a couple of times, saying how wonderful and beautiful she was. So I guess he does find her attractive. You never know what’s going on behind the closed doors, but he does seem happy with her and he does seem to find her attractive.

    Vincent isn’t terrible-looking, but he has a “greaser” look. He’s probably happy to have Monica. :)

    He should go easy on the hair gel (or whatever it’s called). I like a guy’s hair to be free and messy. :D But even if he’s considered average (at best) and lucky to have Monica, it’s still seen as a more “normal” situation than, say, Cillian’s.

    Nkosazana,

    A guy’s ability to provide was never important to me, but I don’t think a woman who cares about is a gold digger.

  13. Sherry (and Alee, I guess):

    There are guys who’d date you even if they aren’t attracted to you. There are several reasons. Maybe you seem “easy” (sexually). Now, it’s definitely not me, but it is one of the factor, especially for younger guys.

    Also, guys sometimes date out of boredom. Especially if you give them attention. Until they find something “better”.

    Then, there are guys who are simply unable to attract women they find attractive, so they settle for less. You definitely don’t want to be in that situation.

  14. Sherry,

    “Miss Alee, you’re back! That was quick. I thought it would be months.”

    Yes, I’m back. And better than ever! :)

    Months? Huh, I don’t think so…

    “Very interesting that folks brought up the fact that they really wanted the person that they date to be attracted to them. I think that I just assumed that if a man asks you out he is physically attracted to you.”

    That’s always been the case with me. Sure, they might say they like other things about me, but the physical is always a part of it.

  15. Mira,

    “…I know nothing about Cuba, and I am not really a fan, but since they’re high school sweethearts, I feel bad when people trash talk about her (or him- she’s hardly a trophy wife, they were together even before he was famous).”

    This is probably relevant. Would he have married her after he became famous? I wonder. He might have. But I’ve noticed with several famous couples where the husband is considered more attractive, the two met before either became famous.

    “[Cillian and his wife] have been together for years (since 1996, I believe, when he was 20). She is also a bit older than him.”

    Wow, Cillian. Older and (to other people) less attractive? He must not care at all about surface characteristics. That’s really great of him.

    ‘There are guys who’d date you even if they aren’t attracted to you. There are several reasons. Maybe you seem “easy” (sexually).’

    Well, to me that still counts as physical attraction. ;)

    ‘Also, guys sometimes date out of boredom. Especially if you give them attention. Until they find something “better”.

    Then, there are guys who are simply unable to attract women they find attractive, so they settle for less. You definitely don’t want to be in that situation.’

    I’ve heard of guys that do this, and I think it’s pretty crappy. But I’ve never been in this position (at least, I don’t think so…).

  16. A guy’s ability to provide was never important to me, but I don’t think a woman who cares about is a gold digger.

    But hey! If you ever had to walk 1 km to stand in line at a communal water tap every morning you would probably be the same way ;)

    I can completely understand why you would want a guy that can provide. If you’re taught or otherwise learned to value security in life (by not having it), you’ll seek that.

    Thanks, makes me feel less like Primrose Crous.

  17. This is probably relevant. Would he have married her after he became famous?

    Yes, that’s an interesting issue. Hot celebs that marry after they become famous tend to go for the generic “hot” women.

    Another (sad) example: Eddie Vedder and his first vs second wife. He met his first wife (Beth Liebling) when he was about 20, she was 17; she’s a musician and they’ve been together for more than 15 years. She’s not ugly, but not what is considered hot, and definitely not what rock stars go after. But then in 2000, they split, and he dated and later married a lingerie model Jill, I forgot her last name (now, I don’t want to be mean; rumor has it that Beth was cheating on him and he seems pretty happy with the model, and she is mother of his children). But still…

    Eddie and Beth:

    Eddie and Jill:

    (now, personally, I find Beth more attractive, but Jill is generally considered more attractive, and she is a model- and we all know rock stars like models ;) ).

    Wow, Cillian. Older and (to other people) less attractive? He must not care at all about surface characteristics. That’s really great of him.

    Well, I don’t know. That might be true, and then again, it might be that he really went after what he likes as the opposite of what is considered hot. He stated once he liked older women (but that he doesn’t understand what Ashton Kutcher (sp?) found in Demi Moore- ouch!), and that his wife is very beautiful. So I don’t think he doesn’t care about physical appearance- I think he does find his wife gorgeous.

    Well, to me that still counts as physical attraction. ;)

    Could be, but it doesn’t have to be. Men have sex with women they are not attracted to.

    I’ve heard of guys that do this, and I think it’s pretty crappy. But I’ve never been in this position (at least, I don’t think so…).

    I’ve never been in this position (I think), but I was in the “dating because of boredom” one, and it wasn’t fun either.

  18. Wait, wait… Where is my long comment? Please don’t tell it’s lost!

    Nkosazana,

    But hey! If you ever had to walk 1 km to stand in line at a communal water tap every morning you would probably be the same way ;)

    Actually, I’ve been in similar situations. Remember economic embargo? People didn’t have what to eat, old people had to kill pigeons to survive and many committed suicide because they were starving. I don’t really remember being hungry, because I was a kid, but boy, my mother remembers what is like when you have no food to give to your child, and no electricity (the water was there, though).

    So no, it’s not that I grew up in luxury- quite the opposite. But the fact I never wanted a guy to provide is because I was raised by my mother alone (my father died when I was 10), and she was raised by her mother (her parents divorces when she was a child and my grandfather didn’t provide), AND we were raised in culture that value both male and female workers, so I was taught that I should never depend on a man.

    That if I have a man to help, great, but my mother and grandmother didn’t have it (at least not in the most critical times), so I was taught to be prepared and to be able to provide for myself. Not to expect a man to do that for me, because I might not have that luxury.

    So I grew up not expecting a guy to provide, and I never valued a guy based on it. Plus, I live in a country that is in an economic mess, so a guy who isn’t able to provide is hardly a bad or a lazy person. If his family doesn’t have connections, chances are he won’t be able to find a decent job anyway, o matter how smart, honest and hard working he is.

  19. Mira,

    “Wait, wait… Where is my long comment? Please don’t tell it’s lost!”

    It’s there. I had to clear it because it got marked as spam for some reason (and your one with pictures didn’t… hmmm, lol).

    “Eddie Vedder and his first vs second wife…now, personally, I find Beth more attractive”

    That’s what I was thinking. The second wife doesn’t seem like much of an “improvement”.

    “That might be true, and then again, it might be that he really went after what he likes as the opposite of what is considered hot. He stated once he liked older women”

    Oh, interesting.

  20. First time commenting here…

    I agree that there should be some form of physical attraction on both parts. I’ve had a few great male friends come into my life who I had a lot of interests in common with, and some of them wanted to date me. Unfortunately I didn’t find them physically attractive, so their crushes on me were in vain. After a while they moved on and learned to see me the way I saw them—as just a friend. It also sucks for me when I had a crush on someone I found attractive, but they wouldn’t give me the time of day. Sometimes things don’t work out on both ends.

    I hate it when someone tries to force me to look past looks and date someone I’m not attracted to. To me that reads “you can’t do any better than that so you might as well settle!”. Physical attraction is something that can’t be forced. It’s either there or it’s not.

    Thanks for posting this thought-provoking topic!

  21. changingmoods,

    “First time commenting here…”

    Well, you’re always welcome to comment again. :)

    I usually never date friends who become attracted to me (often they just became my friend because they were attracted). It would ruin the friendship.

    “I hate it when someone tries to force me to look past looks and date someone I’m not attracted to.”

    No one could force me to, even if they tried! :P
    I certainly think it’s important to notice aspects besides looks, when looking for potential partners. But why should one not care about looks, especially if that’s their natural way of going about things?

    “Physical attraction is something that can’t be forced. It’s either there or it’s not.”

    Yes, I can’t grow into attraction. There may be those who can, but I don’t think I’m one of them, because I’ve tried it.

    “Thanks for posting this thought-provoking topic!”

    No problem! See you around.

  22. Well, you’re always welcome to comment again. :)

    Thank you!

    Ooh, another thing I wanted to say is that an attractive man who’s humble about his appearance is a huge turn on. (I think it was mentioned upthread, but I can’t pinpoint the quote.) I’m talking about the guy who’s all “Gee golly, me?” when told how attractive he is, not the insecure one who’d say “No, I’m not…I’m ugly.” An attractive guy who thinks he’s hot stuff and is cocky about his appearance is annoying.

  23. It’s there. I had to clear it because it got marked as spam for some reason (and your one with pictures didn’t… hmmm, lol).

    What? Was it something wrong with one of the pictures? I am sorry if I messed up something. I was multitasking.

    That’s what I was thinking. The second wife doesn’t seem like much of an “improvement”.

    Well, to give her credit, she does look conventionally hot on her model photos (which, of course, means how unrealistic these photos are):

    Oh, interesting.

    I might be wrong about Cillian (you never know what’s really going on), but he seems to be serious about this. He tries to keep his personal life out of spotlight, but every time someone managed to get a comment about his wife he was always quite enthusiastic about her (and her looks). So I like to think he’s one of those (rare?) guys that are not ashamed to go after what they’re really into, even if it’s not what is considered conventionally hot.

  24. Oh, and please, ignore spelling and grammar mistakes. I couldn’t sleep last night so I am quite tired (you know the feeling, when you’re too tired to sleep)?

  25. changingmoods,

    “Ooh, another thing I wanted to say is that an attractive man who’s humble about his appearance is a huge turn on.”

    I completely agree. I love this. It makes the guy so much more attractive. Not that I mind if a guy acknowledges his good looks, but if he seems unaware of it or doesn’t care much for it, that makes him look even better.

    Mira,

    No, you didn’t mess up anything. Nothing was wrong with the pictures. The spam filter just catches legitimate comments sometimes, especially if they have links. It’s no big deal, I just have to get them out of the filter.

    I understand what you mean about not being able to sleep (although it’s only afternoon here). No worries about the spelling.

  26. I’m late (the Internet was down at work :-()!

    There’s too much here for me to process, so I’ll just make a couple of disjointed points:

    1) Yes, Z has dated some ugly girls. I don’t know what he was thinking (especially since they didn’t seem to have winning personalities, IMO).

    It’s interesting that Black women tend to think of him as cute, while White and Asian girls think he’s hot. (I think he’s hot, but I’m dating him so it figures.)

    2) I don’t like to date guys I’m friends with–never have because lots of guys I’ve been friends with have wanted to date me. I smile a lot, and guys I’ve known like to take that as flirtatious, even though I’ll be no-nonsense/strictly friendly in every other sense. There’s actually a study on men interpreting smiles (from female cashiers) as flirting, while women are more likely to see a smile as just being friendly.

  27. OF COURSE, physical attraction is important, for both sexes, but I believe men are ways more focused on this, ie, it’s what makes them approach a women, while women tend to grow into said attraction. Eg, a single woman at a bar. A man approaches, he’s not “hot” by anyone’s standards, but he makes he laugh, think, feel extremely special, all of a sudden she looks at him and think he’s every hottie rolled into one and would more than likely shag him if it goes that far. A single man at a bar, a rather plain, according to everyone’s standard, woman approaches, makes him laugh, think and feel special, he’s looking around meantime at the various hot women in the bar, not too attentive to this female. He would, perhaps, buy her drinks, but at the end of the evening, he’s going home alone , or would seek out one of the women he’s more physically attracted to. Unless he gets a bit inebriated and is desperate just for some physical release, Miss Plain would be considered a viable option……

  28. OF COURSE, physical attraction is important, for both sexes, but I believe men are ways more focused on this, ie, it’s what makes them approach a women, while women tend to grow into said attraction.

    I think this is the story of my life.

    A hot man will always catch my eye, but of the men I’ve actually dated, it was the guys that grew on me after I got to know them. So I’ve never been with anyone that I didn’t feel attracted to, but I grew into the attraction every time (with a serious relationship).

    I just had a flashback to my Florida days where I went to a backyard party with a bunch of coworkers. There was a graphic designer there who looked like Seth Rogen with super red hair. Yeah, not my type at all. And he smoked, ick.

    BUT… after about an hour talking to him, I was totally feeling ole boy! And I was saying to myself, “What the heck? Why am I digging him? Why???”

    When I told my friends about him, I referred to him as UCG. Ugly cute guy. Just because it made NO sense to me whatsoever why I was crushing on him.

    Nothing ever happened though — he was too much of a party guy. But seriously, he woulda had a serious chance with me otherwise… and I don’t know WHY!!!

  29. Wow I think that’s exactly right…cause more often than not it’s the man who’s more attractive than his woman at home, or more educated, etc. that is out there cheating, all else equal. Looking for that one thing he can’t get at home…that 20%.

    Most of my friends who are married, are more attractive than their husbands. One couple both look like supermodels and have nice, laid back personalities, so you think of both of them as perfect for each other…

  30. foosrock,

    OF COURSE, physical attraction is important, for both sexes, but I believe men are ways more focused on this, ie, it’s what makes them approach a women, while women tend to grow into said attraction.

    This is true, but I think it has more to do with the different ways men and women are socialized, and not what is natural. I think that, deep inside, both genders value physical attraction.

    But, women are taught to look for other things, too. They are also encouraged to see attraction beyond what is considered “conventionally hot”.

    Men, on the other hand, are discouraged from finding anything but “generically hot” attractive. That’s why many men, especially the younger ones, hide their true attraction because they don’t want to be ridiculed for liking women that are not considered conventionally hot.

    So double standards alter both genders’ reactions.

    Bunny77,

    What you described (red haired Seth Rogen situation) is not how I understand “growing into attraction”. Attraction doesn’t have to be “instant” to be attraction. The fact you found this guy attractive after you saw him talk, smile, interact, etc. is what I consider to be “regular” physical attraction. We’re all sometimes attracted to people who are not “our type”, because there’s just something about them.

    The way I understand “growing into attraction” is when you meet a guy (and know him for some time), and you don’t find him attractive. You just don’t. But, he is a nice guy, and you have similar interests. He’s great to talk and laugh with. Starting a relationship with such a guy is “growing into attraction”. Some women claim it happens to them (and I believe them), but it doesn’t work for me. To me, it’s a perfect recipe for a friendship, not dating.

    (What does work, though, is that I don’t see a guy for a while, and something about his appearance changes- he grows his hair longer, for example, and suddenly I realize how cute/hot he is. But that’s a different thing).

  31. Studies make sense. For a man who is married to a less attractive woman, not only do you have to worry about him looking for another woman who is more on his level of attractiveness, but many times woman who are as attractive as him (or even more so sometimes) will actively seek him out, with the old argument “I’m sooo much better than her”. Trouble.

    I think in a longterm relatinship, weight gain is the main reason for a decrease in attractiveness, rather than aging. I would not want to be in a long term relationship with a woman who doesn’t exercise regularly. Sooner or later its gonna catch up.

  32. Jasmin,

    “1) Yes, Z has dated some ugly girls. I don’t know what he was thinking (especially since they didn’t seem to have winning personalities, IMO).”

    LOL at this whole sentence.

    “It’s interesting that Black women tend to think of him as cute, while White and Asian girls think he’s hot.”

    Black women probably have a different idea of what constitutes “sexy”…

  33. foosrock,

    “OF COURSE, physical attraction is important, for both sexes, but I believe men are ways more focused on this, ie, it’s what makes them approach a women”

    I think this too. But why do you believe this is the case? Please don’t give me some pseudo-evobio answer. :)
    while women tend to grow into said attraction.”

    “A man approaches, he’s not “hot” by anyone’s standards, but he makes he laugh, think, feel extremely special, all of a sudden she looks at him and think he’s every hottie rolled into one and would more than likely shag him if it goes that far.’

    Yeah… this has never happened to me. There has to be something there. He doesn’t have to be the hottest guy on earth, but he has to at least be attractive to me.

    Bunny,

    UCG? Lol.

    Seth Rogen has his own appeal. I can see why women would find him attractive, even if he’s not the conventional hottie.

  34. Eloquence,

    “Wow I think that’s exactly right…cause more often than not it’s the man who’s more attractive than his woman at home, or more educated, etc. that is out there cheating, all else equal. Looking for that one thing he can’t get at home…that 20%.”

    If my husband or significant other was considered very attractive, at the least I’d be more wary about other women. Even if they’re not the cheating type, many times other women come on to them, and it can be hard to resist.

    Mira,

    ‘Attraction doesn’t have to be “instant” to be attraction. The fact you found this guy attractive after you saw him talk, smile, interact, etc. is what I consider to be “regular” physical attraction.’

    I agree with this. There are a few guys that I’m attracted to instantly, but it’s usually after I at least hear the guy speak that I become attracted. :)
    I think as long as it doesn’t take you weeks, months, or years to become attracted to the person, it counts as “regular attraction”.

  35. Hi that guy. Good to see you here. :)

    “Studies make sense. For a man who is married to a less attractive woman, not only do you have to worry about him looking for another woman who is more on his level of attractiveness, but many times woman who are as attractive as him (or even more so sometimes) will actively seek him out, with the old argument “I’m sooo much better than her”. Trouble.”

    True. Like what I was saying to Eloquence: other women can cause problems in this sort of situation.

    “I think in a longterm relatinship, weight gain is the main reason for a decrease in attractiveness, rather than aging. I would not want to be in a long term relationship with a woman who doesn’t exercise regularly. Sooner or later its gonna catch up.”

    Hmmm, maybe both? At least if the couple is together for decades, rather than years. If it’s just years, then I agree that weight is the main culprit for a decrease in perceived attractiveness.

  36. That guy,

    For a man who is married to a less attractive woman, not only do you have to worry about him looking for another woman who is more on his level of attractiveness, but many times woman who are as attractive as him (or even more so sometimes) will actively seek him out, with the old argument “I’m sooo much better than her”.

    My partners were usually considered more attractive than me. And yes, it can be difficult sometimes, for the reasons you described. But it doesn’t have to be.

    The most important thing here is not how attractive the guy is, but how attractive he THINKS he is.

    For example, my husband is considered more attractive than me. People are often surprised to learn we’re married. First time they see us, they think he’s my friend. Then, when they realize we have the same last name, they think he’s my brother. Riiight.

    But it doesn’t really bother me, because he doesn’t think he’s hot. He thinks I’m more attractive and he’s not really a social person, so women approaching him don’t really bother me.

    So I guess it all depends on what the person feels inside. Attractive men (who think they’re ooooh, so attractive) were never a good match for me, that’s for sure. (Been there, done that).

  37. Mira,

    “The most important thing here is not how attractive the guy is, but how attractive he THINKS he is.”

    Yes, and yes. But it can be difficult for a man to not think much of himself if women are throwing themselves at him. I’ve seen humble guys turn into arrogant jerks because they found out that they were “le hottest guy”.

    “my husband is considered more attractive than me. People are often surprised to learn we’re married. First time they see us, they think he’s my friend. Then, when they realize we have the same last name, they think he’s my brother. Riiight.”

    Lol. Is it bad that I laughed at this? :)

    This reminds me of what happens with my brother. Women think he’s very attractive, and since I supposedly don’t look like him (I think I do, but most people don’t since our skin tones are far apart) they think he is my close friend or boyfriend. It doesn’t help that he is really playful and puts his arm around me or hits me in joking ways. Women give me dirty looks, and men are afraid to approach me. I went to visit him at college and all these girls he knew would give me a once over, scowl, and look at him like “Who’s this chick?”

  38. But it can be difficult for a man to not think much of himself if women are throwing themselves at him. I’ve seen humble guys turn into arrogant jerks because they found out that they were “le hottest guy”.

    Yes, it can be a problem. It’s really easy to become egoistical, you wouldn’t believe it. I believe we discussed back at your “attractive woman syndrome” post. It’s easy to consider some people egoistical, “bitchy” and what not… But it can easily happen to anybody, given the circumstances.

    In my husband’s case, it doesn’t happen because he’s not really social (quite the opposite of it), so people approaching him is definitely not his idea of a good time. He often ends up insulting women who approach him, semi-unintentionally. He’s “just leave me alone” kind of a person. Yes, it’s sometimes difficult to deal with, but it’s definitely what suits me more than a party-animal.

    Lol. Is it bad that I laughed at this? :)

    No, it’s not bad. I laughed the first time it happened, until I’ve realized the implications. The thing is, we do act like a couple in public (ok, not a new couple; we don’t kiss all the time in public), but we usually hold hands. I mean, shouldn’t that be a telling sign?

    Another thing that often happens is that people think he was my first and only boyfriend, or they assume we have kids (they think we had to get married because I got pregnant, which is something that happens fairly often in my culture, but I dislike when people “assume” it was the case with us, because, what else could it be? Oooh, yes, I have my own flat. That has to be it).

    So yes, in a way, it’s easier when it’s more socially acceptable situation (woman being more attractive than the guy), but I think 90% of the problems arise because guy thinks he’s so hot he deserves better, or that his plain wife is good for domestic work and support, but nothing else.

    But in a way, it’s not really important how attractive any of the person is. It’s more in the head, how you perceive the world to be. That’s why I always say being with someone who is attracted to you is equally important as being with someone you’re attracted to.

  39. “My partners were usually considered more attractive than me. And yes, it can be difficult sometimes, for the reasons you described. But it doesn’t have to be.

    The most important thing here is not how attractive the guy is, but how attractive he THINKS he is.

    For example, my husband is considered more attractive than me. People are often surprised to learn we’re married. First time they see us, they think he’s my friend. Then, when they realize we have the same last name, they think he’s my brother. Riiight.

    But it doesn’t really bother me, because he doesn’t think he’s hot. He thinks I’m more attractive and he’s not really a social person, so women approaching him don’t really bother me.

    So I guess it all depends on what the person feels inside. Attractive men (who think they’re ooooh, so attractive) were never a good match for me, that’s for sure. (Been there, done that).”

    I agree to an extent, but women rate attractiveness for men alot differently than men do women. Though your guy may physically be more attractive than you, if he doesn’t have alot of charisma or a dominant personality (ie is a nice guy), other women may not find him as attractive as you do and be less likely to approach him directly. But for a confident, socially adept man, dating below his level of physical attractiveness will always be a challenge, no matter the girls personality. Especially if he’s used to dating hotter women. I guess thats why women love the bad boys, they feel they always have to chase them to keep them locked down. Us guys enjoy the chase too, thats why were always looking for hotter women.

  40. I agree to an extent, but women rate attractiveness for men alot differently than men do women.

    True, but I thought we were talking about “perceived attractiveness” all the time. So even if someone is perceived attractive, if he doesn’t believe that to be the case, he won’t behave like he’s missing something by dating a woman who is perceived to be less attractive (especially if he finds her attractive). Let’s not forget that attractiveness is individual. He might find his girl hot, and doesn’t care that others don’t see her as attractive.

    Though your guy may physically be more attractive than you, if he doesn’t have alot of charisma or a dominant personality (ie is a nice guy), other women may not find him as attractive as you do and be less likely to approach him directly.

    He’s more of a grumpy, leave me alone type than the conventional “nice” guy that all women claim to like but never want to date.

    But for a confident, socially adept man, dating below his level of physical attractiveness will always be a challenge, no matter the girls personality.

    I never mentioned a girl’s personality. All I’m saying is that hot guy, ugly girl pairing works differently if a) the guy doesn’t see himself as hot, and b) he sees his girl as attractive.

    Like I wrote before, men are heavily discouraged from considering anything but generic, conventionally hot women attractive, but attraction is highly subjective; there will always be men who are personally attracted to features that are not considered conventionally hot. Many men, especially younger ones, hide this in fear of being ridiculed (because they’re into girls taller than them, chubby girls, girls with large noses or small breasts or whatever).

    But those who don’t care that much about what others think will go after what they find attractive, even if it’s not something that others find hot. So they might end up with plain girls that they find gorgeous.

    I guess thats why women love the bad boys, they feel they always have to chase them to keep them locked down.

    Do you know why women like the bad boys? Because they think they’re better in bed.

    Seriously. That’s the only reason. Now, women might not be aware of it, but, basically, that’s it. Of course, “bad boys” often prove to be a disappointment in bed, but that’s another story.

    Also, power. Taming a bad boy is the ultimate challenge. Making a nice, shy guy faithful and loyal is not much of a challenge; anybody can do that. But if you tame the local heartthrob you prove to be better (and, hence, more powerful) than the other girls who didn’t manage to do it.

    So, bad boys are liked because of the sex factor and because of female competitive nature towards other women.

  41. I’m well aware of the fact bad boys are perceived to be better in bed haha, I kinda thought that was a given thats why I didn’t mention it. But alot (not all of course) of women also enjoy the chase and the emotional rollercoaster that goes along with it. Though most won’t actually admit it. (think the girl who always gets in fights with her boyfriend but always seems to keep coming back for more) I agree with most of what your saying though, especially that the dynamics of a hot girl plain guy relationship are different from a hot guy plain girl one, maybe thats another topic altogether. And men definitely do have wide variations of what they like in women.

  42. Well, I mentioned it because many women are quite unaware of it. Due to double standards and gender dynamics, women are encouraged to seek other, non-sexual qualities in a man. So even if the attraction is purely sexual, women try to find other excuses for it, such as “he’s a good person”, or “he’s successful”. I might soon blog about this.

    But basically, the only appeal “alphas” have is the (mis)conception that they’re good in bed- which is often not true. And the fact you feel more powerful if you manage to get and tame a guy like that- contrary to the popular belief, many women do like to be hunters themselves.

    But many women do realize how pointless is to chase after the same 2-3 guys who appear “dominant”, either because they’re smart form the start or because they’ve tried dating “dominant” guys and realized how passive and unexciting and… ordinary many of them are, once you see behind the first layer of their fake confidence. Seriously.

    So I’d definitely not advise any fellow female to date a guy who appears dominant, unless she wants casual sex, perhaps, because “dominant” guys (just like super-sexy girls, I’ve heard) tend to be quite uninspiring in bed (because they think it’s enough that they are there and that they don’t have to put any effort into it).

  43. that guy says:

    “I guess thats why women love the bad boys, they feel they always have to chase them to keep them locked down.”

    I hate “the chase”. Guys who make me chase will soon find out they are only chasing themselves.

    I like passion in relationships, but that doesn’t have to be with a “bad boy”. Bad boys are more likely to cheat and have a “wandering eye”, which are deal-breakers for me, so I avoid anyone like that.

    Mira says:

    ‘I thought we were talking about “perceived attractiveness” all the time.’

    We are — that’s the vantage point the studies used. Perceived attractive by outsiders, not the person themselves.

    “bad boys are liked because of the sex factor and because of female competitive nature towards other women.”

    Agreed. Especially the latter. I’ve seen many times where women primarily date a guy just so they can seem better than other women.

  44. I might be mistaken about this, but I think men sometimes don’t really realize how competitive women are, in the straight, “male” sense of the word. Or how all this “chasing bad boys” thing is actually one of the aspects of male objectification.

  45. Mira, I think you might be right. Many men think that women are gentler and not into competing like males are. (At the same time they think are “catty” — cognitive dissonance, anyone?)

    ‘all this “chasing bad boys” thing is actually one of the aspects of male objectification.’

    It is. But would they care? I don’t know. IME, sometimes men like to be objectified in that way, probably because it’s not a regular thing for them like it is for women.

  46. I am sooo doing a post on male objectification!

    In my experience, men don’t like to be objectified any more than anybody else likes. However, they are often unable to grasp the full meaning of objectification, because of several factors. First of all, women generally still don’t have that much power to dehumanize and humiliate (for example, a female boss harassing her workers- it does happen, but not on the same scale as men harassing women. Plus, men are still not socialized from the childhood to be seen as objects).

    And second of all, due to double sexual standards, being seen as a sexual object doesn’t seem that bad to them, because they might think it gives them more power.

    But deep down, all people want to be seen as people, and being liked for your firm abs gets old pretty quickly. Men might not like to talk about it, but they don’t like to be objectified. Especially when they find out how women really talk about them when they’re not around.

  47. Mira,

    “I am sooo doing a post on male objectification!”

    I was going to do one, in the distant future.

    “In my experience, men don’t like to be objectified any more than anybody else likes.”

    Well, it depends on how they are being objectified. They probably wouldn’t like it if women were making a spectacle of their “size”, especially if they aren’t that big. But if women are chasing after them because they think they’re the hottest bad boy around? Probably.

    And it also depends on the “kind” of guy. I mostly have experience with extroverts and athletes, so an introverted librarian probably wouldn’t react in the same manner.

    “due to double sexual standards, being seen as a sexual object doesn’t seem that bad to them”

    Right.

    “Men might not like to talk about it, but they don’t like to be objectified. Especially when they find out how women really talk about them when they’re not around.”

    :twisted:

    ;)

  48. Well, yes, they seem to be extremely sensitive about their penises. But objectifying doesn’t have to be about comparing sizes, and, while many women DO talk about penis size and even go as far as ridiculing guys who are too small (or too big), objectifying is often not about penis at all. (News flash, guys: women are not THAT obsessed with penises, after all).

    The main problem with objectification- and I can tell you guys don’t like it, either- is being seen as an object, not a subject. A guy who is objectified as sexy might think that his sexual potential is being recognized. But it’s not as fun when they realize that in objectification, his (sexual) needs and preferences aren’t important. Ask any male heterosexual celebrity whether they like to appear in slash fan fiction (written by female fans). Right.

    Another example: one guy I know was especially horrified when he found out a girl who was into him shared all the details about the oral sex he gave her the night before.

  49. It’s true women don’t care about size as much as men think they do. But I’ve seen some talk about it just to make men pay attention. Ha.

  50. Well, penis size, along with erectile dysfunction and/or premature ejaculation is one of the few sexual subjects that women can successfully use to humiliate men.

    It gives them power, because they know how insecure guys are about it. So even if they don’t really care about the size, or whether he can go for 2 minutes or an hour, they will bring that subject, because women know how sensitive poor dears are about it.

  51. “I hate “the chase”. Guys who make me chase will soon find out they are only chasing themselves.

    I like passion in relationships, but that doesn’t have to be with a “bad boy”. Bad boys are more likely to cheat and have a “wandering eye”, which are deal-breakers for me, so I avoid anyone like that.”

    Thats a good thing, but not all women are that mature. I (and most men) judge women very harshly on their past lovers/boyfriends. If I know a women is attracted to that kind of guy or has previously dated that kind of guy, that is usually an instant disqualifier for any type of relationship other than a one night stand or short fling. Women who fall for that kind of guy are what we refer to kindly as damaged goods lol.

    @ Mira

    Yes, we are very sensitive about that kind of thing. No guy likes the idea that he might not be as good in bed as her previous boyfriend. Women are just as insecure though I think, but correct me if I’m wrong. I know in my experience, with several women I’ve had sex with, if I’m going on for more than 30-45 minutes and don’t feel myself getting ready to cum, even if she already has, I might decide to just stop because I’m getting tired and don’t feel like spending another 30 minutes to reach orgasm. Usually I would just fake it, but on the occasions I don’t each and every time the girl goes crazy, asking me if she was good enough, or if I’m even attracted to her, or what she was not doing right. No matter my explanation, she will always end up feeling insecure and the next time we have sex she will always try to blow me away by doing something crazy. I’m curious, is this the normal female reaction to this kind of thing, or is it maybe just a reflection of specific women I’ve dealt with?

  52. Ok, I just hope you’re joking about the “damaged goods”. Maybe it’s just me, but I cringe at the term. As for the chase, I know many men and women who don’t enjoy it (who, in fact, hate it). But the chase, I think, is being popularized and it’s often encouraged. At least it is in my culture. People are encouraged to be attracted to those they have to chase, and to see those who are there for them as less interesting. Yes, encouraged. But there are so many people who find chase either pointless, tiring or simply mean.

    Now about your question. The main problem, I think, is a common sexual myth that a man always has an orgasm during sex (and that male orgasm is what makes an “official” end of an intercourse). A man doesn’t have an orgasm only under special, very bad circumstances. So for many women, a guy without an orgasm is a sure sign something is wrong.

    And yes, women do feel a certain pressure to be “good in bed”, though for some, it means looking pretty during sex (wearing sexy underwear, being perfectly waxed, etc). Which is silly, because, who looks pretty during sex? If they’re enjoying it, that is.

    And what do you mean faking an orgasm?!?!? Don’t you know only women are allowed to do that?

    PS- Personally, I never got the appeal of “going for 45 minutes”, but that’s just me. However, it’s another thing that women often use to ridicule men. He can only go for 10 minutes!, as if it’s a crime or something.

  53. lol interesting convo.

    There are guys out there that can literally go for hourS, no break…and you will be so into each other–and coincidentally so perfectly compatible in this area–that it is like World War III and The Perfect Storm combined, all the time…have you feeling like you’re being seduced by a real live incubus (look up the definition to see why I chose that word). A woman doesn’t NEED that length of time to be pleased, and it doesn’t even take an orgasm to have felt pleasure from the head to the tingle in the fingers and toes…but with a guy that has you into him enough and absolutely turned on enough to stay…well-lubricated without assistance…that long?…nobody walks away from that NOT pleased all over, put it like that! lol

    And don’t think it’s some case of ugly guy needing to prove himself in bed either. At least one I can think of that is like that is drop dead gorgeous… chocolate with some perfectly–dangerously–kissable lips that make you think all kinds of sinful things and big sparkling liquid black eyes with some lashes you can’t even buy in a store…and a smooth bald head and if that wasn’t enough, 200% PERFECT white teeth. Dazzling smile. Jamaican. No he isn’t 6 feet tall so he isn’t PERFECT lol but he isn’t 5’6″ neither!

    *fans self* you know, there’s physically attractive men–and then there are some men who just seem to have been created SOLELY to trip a woman up from ALL her good intentions! lol. Personality is what we are trained to look for, and ambition, and his ability to court us…but looks only doesn’t matter til you see a man who is either hideous or GORGEOUS. :)

  54. but looks only doesn’t matter til you see a man who is either hideous or GORGEOUS. :)

    Smart words.

    “For hours” is still NOT my idea of fun, though.

  55. lol If you’re really into someone and just as active as they are (or at least yin-yang twins where one likes to dominate and one likes to be dominated)…then it’s not the “oh i have to lie here and take this for HOW much longer?” scenario.

    On the other side though, the so-called minute-men, are they universally hated by women or do some women prefer that?

    Is a man’s looks inversely proportional to the amount of “manhood” he has to prove in bed? As in, the worse he looks, the more he has to prove if he is even allowed that far?

    And Mira are you male or female? Pic says male, name and some of the responses have me confused.

  56. @ Mira

    Dead serious. Us men consider some women damaged goods like women consider some men damaged goods. Ever heard can’t turn a bad girl good/hoe into a housewife/any variation of that?

    And yes, its not really that uncommon for a man to fake an orgasm. Some women really aren’t that good at having sex, and add in the fact that condoms rob men of almost all pleasure, and that she thought it would be a good idea to go for round two, 30 minutes in annnnnnnnnnd I’m faking it. I might wait less time if I’m really not into it.

    A funny story, one time I didn’t put on a good act at faking it, so the girl I was seeing was not convinced at all that I really came, so she checked the condom and was shocked that it was dry. After that, every time we had sex she would check the condom when she thought I wasn’t looking to see if I really did cum. Yeah. . . . I think I ruined that poor girls self esteem.

    Women joke about mens penis size, men joke and compare womens sexual performances. To women who had a one night stand and they expected they guy to call her back? Yeah, you just weren’t that good in bed. I’m sure its the same way in reverse when a woman doesn’t call back. Unless of course there’s a significant other involved.

    Hmmmmm, lots of knowledge in this thread haha.

  57. You can be very much into someone and enjoying, but still not liking prolonged penetration. It has nothing to do with attractiveness, love or passion.

    On the other side though, the so-called minute-men, are they universally hated by women or do some women prefer that?

    Not sure what to say. One minute (as in, 60 s) isn’t fun either. But then again 60 minutes aren’t, if you ask me. But there are women who like quickies. It is a myth, I think, that ALL women expect men to go for hours, or that they always want that.

    Is a man’s looks inversely proportional to the amount of “manhood” he has to prove in bed? As in, the worse he looks, the more he has to prove if he is even allowed that far?

    This is interesting. I think it’s not as much about what women expect, but how men feel. Men who don’t consider themselves particularly attractive might prove to be better lovers because they will put an effort into the act, while hotties might not care about woman’s needs. But it’s not universal rule. It works the same for women, I think: many men complain about attractive women being very uninspiring in bed.

    But I don’t think women expect an uglier guy to more to be considered equal to a hot guy. Once she agrees to have sex with someone, she expects the same. No hottie can get a pass for being a lousy lover just because he’s attractive! This is a number one mistake so-called “dominant” men make when it comes to sex: they often prove to be lousy lovers. Which is quite ironic, because many women choose them because they seem like good lovers. But a selfish lover is never a good lover, and hot guys often put less effort into it.

    PS-I am female. I know my avatar is confusing, and I am sorry about that; I know it happens, but I am so used to having males (celebrities) as my avatars.

  58. that guy,

    I’m sorry to say, but your post reeks of sexism. Damaged goods? Can’t turn hoe into a housewife?

    And yes, its not really that uncommon for a man to fake an orgasm.

    I thought it was a top secret and a taboo subject that should never openly talked about. Like Yeti or something.

    Faking an orgasm (no matter if you’re male or a female) is a sign something’s wrong in your relationship, or in your attitude towards sex. Why do you (general you) feel the need to fake? Why do you feel forced to have an orgasm in the first place? Why can’t you talk to you partner about it? These are all the questions that orgasm-fakers need to ask themselves.

    Women joke about mens penis size, men joke and compare womens sexual performances.

    … and women joke and compare men’s sexual performances.

    To women who had a one night stand and they expected they guy to call her back? Yeah, you just weren’t that good in bed. I’m sure its the same way in reverse when a woman doesn’t call back.

    I thought the guy doesn’t call back because his mission was done, so to speak, if all he wanted is to have sex with you.

    When a woman doesn’t call back… Not sure. It’s because she’s embarrassed about the whole thing?

  59. Its not sexism. I think most smart women also know that its mission impossible to try to “cure” a player. So it works both ways, complete equality really.

    Like I said, I don’t always fake, and when I don’t and just stop, thats when the girl has a crazy reaction. I should let you know this mostly happens with women I am not seeing exclusively. When I’m in a committed relationship, I pretty much never lie about it. If I don’t cum, I’m ok with her going a little crazy and putting alot more effort in next time lol. I know I’m not perfect in bed either, and I’m sure at some point in my life women have lied to me about their orgasms, but I really don’t care that much. As in, I would never ask a girl, “really, did you really have an orgasm or were you just faking”.

    And as far as the one night stands, yes, the mission is to get the girl in bed so mission accomplished if we do. But if the sex is that good, we will call back.

  60. at Mira and the post in response to mine…thanks for clarifying on gender.

    Far as dominant men usually being bad lovers…not where I’m from! (Which is Jamaica.)

    I think too many women sleep with men based on WHAT he has and not CHEMISTRY (and signs of compatibility, if in a committed relationship/marriage). So their mind is not really into the man as a man, and so their body is not turned on enough for them to want to do anything…and they become sorry in bed cause they should have never gone there with that man. Sex starts in the head.

    Then again I am sure there are folks who actually are neutral or bad in bed…but I just can’t see being a lame in the arms of someone you really are into…this is BASIC instinct, to mate, every animal has it…are people so out of tune with their basic instincts that when time comes to do what comes natural, they can’t get even that right? That’s a like a newborn baby not knowing to suck when the breast is near…it’s an instinct it shouldn’t take training!

  61. I kinda agree, Can’t turn a hoe in to a housewife and a player into a husband. Unless you want to worry about cheating all the time.

  62. Eloquence, Inc.

    at Mira and the post in response to mine…thanks for clarifying on gender.

    I know the avatar thing is confusing. But I’ve always used males for my avatars; it’s what I feel most comfortable with. I understand it creates confusion for some people (as well as my website’s name, jefflion), but I’m a girl. :)

    Far as dominant men usually being bad lovers…not where I’m from! (Which is Jamaica.)

    Well, it depends on what “dominant” means. In my experience, what makes man seem dominant is his social popularity. And very often, it’s just the mask. Deep, or not so deep down, these men are average, or even below average individuals. Because much of their everyday effort goes on heavy socializing and appearing dominant. Not sure how to explain. Oh, and it sure might be culture specific. Men in my country tend to be quite lazy with women, which is surprising because sometimes it seems women chasing and sex is the only thing they talk about (but I admit I don’t know what they talk about when women aren’t around).

    I think too many women sleep with men based on WHAT he has and not CHEMISTRY (and signs of compatibility, if in a committed relationship/marriage). So their mind is not really into the man as a man, and so their body is not turned on enough for them to want to do anything…and they become sorry in bed cause they should have never gone there with that man. Sex starts in the head.

    Indeed. I thought it was common sense, but people should never sleep with those who they’re not attracted to.

    Then again I am sure there are folks who actually are neutral or bad in bed…but I just can’t see being a lame in the arms of someone you really are into…this is BASIC instinct, to mate, every animal has it…are people so out of tune with their basic instincts that when time comes to do what comes natural, they can’t get even that right?

    Well, a healthy person can’t be untalented for making love, I think. Sure, it can happen that two people are not compatible, and it’s a tricky situation (it’s one of the reasons I think premarital sex is a good thing). But even that isn’t a deal breaker; I am sure with loving partners, it can be made that both people enjoy even if they’re not compatible.

    But what makes a man “bad” in bed is not the size of his penis, or how long he can go, but whether he’s selfish or not. Sex with a man who doesn’t put an effort and doesn’t care about your sexual needs is no fun. Selfish people make bad lovers, not people with small penises.

  63. that guy

    Its not sexism. I think most smart women also know that its mission impossible to try to “cure” a player. So it works both ways, complete equality really.

    I agree it works both ways, but it’s still sexism. Although, in female case, it works a bit differently (due to double standards). Women want to stay away from players because they don’t want to be used and hurt. They don’t say: oh, he’s a player; he’s good for nothing but fuc..g, and forgetting the next morning. He as a human being has no value because all he is good for is sex. Ok, there are some women who do it this way, but majority of women stay away from players because they don’t want to be used; NOT because they want to use players and forget them the next morning.

    Like I said, I don’t always fake, and when I don’t and just stop, thats when the girl has a crazy reaction.

    Well, I guess you’re doing something wrong. Not sexually, but… I mean, can’t you just talk to those women? Nobody should be pressured to fake an orgasm, ever!

    As in, I would never ask a girl, “really, did you really have an orgasm or were you just faking”.

    Oh, yes I think it’s another of those cultural things. I don’t know where you’re from, but I can sense this orgasm issue is big on the west. In a way it’s presented that men want to know if the woman had an orgasm or not. Guys here never ask that. Which is both good and a bad thing. (Good, because it’s quite a silly question, and bad, because they assume you did have an orgasm just because you were with HIM, or they don’t ask because… they don’t care).

  64. Oh, sorry. I was sure this whole thing (except, maybe, orgasm faking) could be related to physical attractiveness in relationship.

  65. Honestly most hot guys that settle with a plain or ugly wife got their heart broken too many times by the hot girls, and/or got lazy/had self esteem issues and want a woman who will be so excited to have him around that he gets king treatment with ease, no having to actually earn it.

    If anything, the hot guys who get with plainer girls are more likely to have a God complex. They may just not act like azzholes and therefore be able to play it off. Not saying they won’t be really into her, but people’s past issues in the dating world play into who they decide it’s best for them to take as a wife or husband.

    Same can be said for super hot women who get with some turtle looking dude. I know someone that is getting married to a turtle looking dude (and she’s supremely beautiful) and I know it’s because of all the heartbreak she’s suffered with the hot guys that are on her level with looks. After a lifetime of only the hottest guys including a sexy exhusband…she’s going for the guy who’ll adore the dirt beneath her feet with ease cause anybody can see he’s lucky to have landed her. From a physical standpoint. It’s like Russell Simmons catching Megan Fox for a wife.

  66. And i honestly know players that got the b.s. out their system and married and are model fathers and husbands. Women go after players hoping to be the one that’s on the merrygoround when he’s ready to retire from the game.

    Most fail.

  67. “want a woman who will be so excited to have him around that he gets king treatment with ease”

    Seems like there is some truth to this.

    LOL at “turtle looking dude”.

    Russell Simmons is not bad-looking, and Megan Fox is plastic.

  68. He’s not ugly, but he still looks like a turtle. Not the leathery skin part, just the overall set of his features.

    Megan Fox has a significant number of black men who even though they say they not ready to get married or have kids yet, WILL “trap” her the instant they get a chance.

    I dunno if she’s had surgery but I doubt she did when she came on the scene and she was drop dead gorgeous then too (minus tattoos, which no one sees in her movies).

    When i see a meek and mild plain dude with a hot chick i think he has money. When i see a swaggerific plain or ugly dude with a hot chick i think he must be excellent in bed. Biased i know but hey. The man doesn’t have all that confidence off his looks so it MUST be *dramatic music playing* something else! lol

  69. I mean, no offense, but black men usually like non-black women that look certain “ways”, so I don’t take their interest in her as meaning much. :)

    “I dunno if she’s had surgery but I doubt she did”

    Here’s the thing: most people (especially women) in Hollywood have had plastic surgery. It’s true. Between surgery, make-up, and lighting, very little of what you see is “real”. PS is really not a controversial or interesting thing with famous people — it’s normal. It’s only unbelievable to people whose livelihood doesn’t depend on their looks.

    “when she came on the scene and she was drop dead gorgeous then too”

    Most have surgery before they hit the scene; their looks are how they become popular in the first place…

    I used to work with a plastic surgeon so I have a good eye for “surgery”. And I work in microbio so my job is to notice detail. You don’t turn from this to this in a few years, without multiple surgeries. It just doesn’t happen.

    Even my gravatar girl, Kelly Rowland, has had surgery. Doesn’t mean she wasn’t pretty before, but she is enhanced.

  70. I get you, never saw what she looked like before Transformers…the lips do look different, but then my lips look different with lipstick than without.

    She is infamous for the hair, the EYES, the non-pale-white skin, and the vibe she gives off…her whole look is unusual and those features are present in both pictures, just more sophisticated looking in the 2nd pic.

    Now that you show them both though I wouldn’t be surprised if she had lip surgery. But men don’t care how you get it they just want to know that you got it and will make them the envy of every man walking.

  71. “Now that you show them both though I wouldn’t be surprised if she had lip surgery.”

    And rhinoplasty (nose), cheek sculpting… her whole face is different. You wouldn’t know it was her except for her eyes. Her hair is also not naturally black.

    Anyway, I’ll stop there, since it’s getting off-topic. I know it’s harsh to dissect people’s looks, but I’m used to dissecting things. I might have a PS topic in the future.

  72. Oh mannnnn my boy is going to get his heart broken when I show him the pictures and tell him that! I would have NEVER guessed all that! Maybe it will wake him up but then again…she’s still very unusual looking and men love that.

  73. Honestly most hot guys that settle with a plain or ugly wife got their heart broken too many times by the hot girls, and/or got lazy/had self esteem issues and want a woman who will be so excited to have him around that he gets king treatment with ease, no having to actually earn it.

    Sadly, I believe there’s some truth to it (same for women who go after “uglier” guys). I am first to admit I don’t trust attractive men (who perceive themselves as very attractive, and who welcome the attention women give them).

    However, I don’t think that being with a less attractive partner automatically means “settling for less”.

    If anything, the hot guys who get with plainer girls are more likely to have a God complex.

    I think that many men who get into serious relationships/marriage with plainer women perceive these women to be more stable and loyal than the attractive ones. In a way, it’s an easy way out- they believe a plan girl would not cheat on them. But it also means they think less attractive women would make better wives and mothers, which might not be true. Why wouldn’t an attractive woman be a great mother and a spouse? I believe there’s a lot of that whore/housewife dichotomy in it (which doesn’t make it any less true- men DO often perceive attractive women as not being good for long term relationship).

    PS- I have a couple of things to say about Megan Fox, but I will share them in the Clouds section.

  74. Off topic even more but I love how blue ray’s on a very high quality TV make actors makeup, surgerys, and fake/unnatural lighting stick out like a sore thumb. I never noticed how much makeup people on TV wore, on a blue ray you can see they are basically covered in paint. I lost alot of respect for actors I previously thought were hot. Their really just regular people I guess, nothing special.

  75. Yes, of course they are regular people. Just got lucky, or sometimes they might have a little talent. There are better looking people I see on the street every day, without all the make-up, surgery, lighting, etc.

  76. Sorry I missed this, looks really interesting. Yes, attractiveness is important but if it was as important as we all think all these unattractive people wouldn’t be attached. LOL. But attraction is subjective in so many ways, we all find different things attractive. I find Brad Pitt seriously good looking but I also find Seth Rogen attractive also. Now I don’t know either of them but would a really so-called ‘hot’ man lose points if he had no personality and was a jerk, yea Brad would but so would Seth. Would either of them gain points if they had a great personality and good sense of humor and all around great guy yes. So it’s the other stuff that makes you want to stay, we’re all visual unless you’re blind we all see things, the human eye was made to appreciate beautiful things but yes men and women are different. Some nurture, some nature. But in the real world only about 3% of people are what you’d say are ‘super hot’ the majority of the world is differing degrees of average. We’re all so nice on the internet and we see each other’s mates and say ‘oh he’s so cute’ and just being honest sometimes I’m looking at the photo and think ‘my goodness he’s just average’ or she’s just average. It’s not a diss, cause heck I’m just average. I love my sweetie and he was handsome to me when I met him but as I got to know him he became more and more attractive, looks didn’t change but because I liked his personality, he had traits attractive, his attractiveness grew. But he’s probably average and maybe unattractive to some people, does that matter to me, no. I’m sure with me, I’m average to most men and unattractive to a lot, hey what can I do you can’t be loved by everybody. We, of course, all have different tastes and what I see some women find attractive I find average. I agree with Alee, George Clooney is so average to me, why any woman thinks he’s attractive is a mystery to me and he’s a serial monogamist which is really unattractive.

  77. Hi Eugenia,

    Yes, attractiveness is subjective. So for most people, at least a few others will find them attractive. And a person who is unattractive (in my opinion, or yours) might just have to pair with someone of a similar status. So we’re all happily paired up. :)

    I agree that it’s the other stuff besides physical appearance that is the “meat” of a long-lasting relationship.

    I actually think a good percentage of the boyfriends and husbands of my online friends are attractive… :)

  78. I really enjoyed reading the article and your comments.
    you guys are amazing, it does open my mind to some of the relationship experiences out there.

  79. As much as physical beauty and attraction are important in our world, when it comes to relationships more hinges on what one says, their energy, how they conduct themselves, and especially how they treat people. Granted you need some form of attraction, but don’t you think endearing personality traits make someone more physically attractive to you? Even though you may not realize this, it happens.

    Attraction is great for months, but eventually (if we’re talking relationships), when you have to be around the person all the time, it’s more about compatibility and meshing of personalities: what you both value in people and life.

    I realize this is a thread about physical attraction and is bound to sound one dimensional at points, but it’s interesting reading the specificity of people’s preferences in physical male attributes, like not dating below a certain height. You may surprise yourself when you can’t place a finger on why you’re attracted to someone after talking with them or spending time with them, and afterwards you realize they are not your physical ideal.

    If you want to be happy in the long run, you will learn about people outside your so-called “type” (whatever that may be). As you get older, you realize your own happiness is more essential than compensating for some insecurity about your own appearance.

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