The following is a guest post by Zek J Evets.
Zek J Evets is a Jew-ish writer, musician, and anthropologist living in San Francisco. He is a contributor to anti-hate magazine Life After Hate, author of Distorted Orange Hidden County, and blogs frequently at Zeitgeist of the Saboteur Academia while finishing his undergraduate degrees.
I’m here in lieu of your regularly scheduled blogess Alee to drop a few knowledge bombs regarding the perception of casual sex, one-night stands, and all that mess from Le Male perspective.
My Experience
I’ve done it Nice Guy, Bad Boy, attempted seduction, pick-ups in random bars, online dating, and other strange places. While I’m no Casanova Don Juan-looking kind of dude, I did manage to date around until I was snatched up by the proverbial Girlfriend (though the title barely encompasses our loving relationship).
From what I’ve seen, the old meme of men = sex-crazed, and women = shyly sexual is not really all that true. I am living proof that not all men desire random meaningless sex in abundance. I’ve been at the shallow end of the pool, attempting to emulate the so-called “players” I grew up with, thinking I could knock back ladies like they were vodka shots. I was successfully unsuccessful – or is it vice versa? Either way, the result was only a feeling of loneliness.
My dating history has also shown that a lot of women are only looking for meaningless sex. (Men reading this may notice their guydar going off at this point, reading “bull to the ish”, but I’m serious!)
This might be surprising to the ladies reading, but many guys are like me and don’t just want a bunch of random sex, especially when it’s the woman doing the dumping afterwards.
(I still shudder at the memory of one particularly horrible experience. A girl actually kicked me out of her bed at 4 AM because she was too drunk to do anything else and she had to get up for work early. I sarcastically call this my half-night stand.)
Men, Sex, and Attachment
Just like women, men experience a period of increasing emotional attachment after sex. But unlike women, men don’t typically ask to cuddle afterwards. Instead they try to turn the girl into a wifey – the woman they plan to be with for life. The guy thinks, “That was some hot shit. I need to keep this girl around!”
A guy can become territorial after only one encounter – even if it was only making out! This sense of ownership and possession may be inbred or enculturated in men; I’m uncertain its origin, but its existence is clear. What’s weirder, men are likely to hold on to that feeling even after the relationship is over and a woman has begun seeing someone else.
(I knew a guy who still tried to have quickie hook-ups with a former friend with benefits of his while she was pursuing a dating relationship with someone else.)
Sex in Relationships: Men vs. Women
It’s important to know the difference between men and women when it comes to the requirements of sex in a relationship (whether serious or casual). Most guys see sex as a physical manifestation of attraction – they like you so they want to have sex with you. In dating, a guy will generally want to immediately sleep with a woman they have a strong enough connection with.
Sure, there are men who can just have sex with a stranger (and I’m sure we’ve all met them). But believe me, even if you just walked up to a guy, leaned in close, and whispered in his ear, “Wanna have sex?” you’d still need to have a conversation before he’d believe you and feel comfortable enough to get crack-a-lacking.
However, men DO want sex, and they usually want it early on. In relationships, most guys I know are hesitant to wait for long to have sex, even with women they really, really like. Actually, especially with women they really, really like. (Not that they won’t wait! But they won’t like it.)
The way I’ve seen it in post-college life is after three dates it’s “acceptable” to have sex. After more than about a month of dating, if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you then chances are she isn’t attracted to you. For myself, if a woman didn’t even kiss me after the first date, I tended to be suspicious of her interest in me. (Mostly because I’ve been used a lot. I’m too nice.)
And the depressingly ironic thing is when a woman likes a guy, she is more likely to wait to do anything physical! For fear of messing things up! (To me, this is the height of foolishness. But considering my history who am I to judge?) Consequently there is always that push and pull where a guy wants to go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go. Often it’s not because he’s “only interested in one thing” but because he’s trying to connect in the most fundamental, biological way he knows how.
Many of you are probably thinking of caveats to this, exceptions, stories you’ve heard, or people you know. But I’m not talking about single instances. And I’m definitely not talking about college. (Which seems to be where everyone forms their lasting impressions of the opposite sex.) I’m talking about the real life, post-grad, living in a city, trying to get a boyfriend/girlfriend, haven’t had sex in months dating world.
Let me close on this final thought. Despite all the flak men get for their shallow sexuality, I have yet to see a regular guy who wanted to have sex with someone he thought was attractive but didn’t actually like. For all our faults, most men are not as shallow as that. Ultimately, for men, sex is about closeness. So to the women, when a guy wants to have sex with you, before you kick him to the curb or make him wait it out another couple of weeks, perhaps you should ask yourself if he just wants to be closer to you. Just saying.
Cheers
See also:
Great post, Z.
I have several comments/questions:
1) This is the longest post I’ve ever pushed “play” on.
2) I’m so dead @ “thinking I could knock back ladies like they were vodka shots.”.
How apropos that you should use an alcohol comparison.
3) “After more than about a month of dating, if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you then chances are she isn’t attracted to you.”
Doesn’t want to… or doesn’t? Or both? Or either?
4) “I have yet to see a regular guy who wanted to have sex with someone he thought was attractive but didn’t actually like.”
I have! Plenty of times…
1) Yeah, I do tend to be more long-winded than the average blogger, haha.
2) Well, I won’t pretend I don’t have a gift for metaphor =P
3) Fair point. Doesn’t and Doesn’t Want To would be two different circumstances. I understand many people hold sex in far different degrees of… importance than myself or the people I’ve dated. However, judging by contemporary American culture, sex is somewhat more casually viewed across the country than it used to be.
But for the purposes of my post, let’s stick with Doesn’t Want To, because that is closer to the mark of my meaning, which is the importance of physical attraction/intimacy as a mirror or marker of emotional/spiritual/intellectual/whatever attraction-slash-intimacy. And I do believe that this is true, though I guess it could come off as shallow or lustful to some people.
4) I haven’t. But that’s life for you. I am, of course, not including celebrities or celeb-crushes, nor prostitutes. I think, and most guys would agree, that those get a separate category.
Still, I’d be curious to meet a guy who had sex with someone and DIDN’T even like them…
Z,
“Well, I won’t pretend I don’t have a gift for metaphor =P”
And a penchant for the drink? *blinks*
…Just kidding.
“for the purposes of my post, let’s stick with Doesn’t Want To, because that is closer to the mark of my meaning, which is the importance of physical attraction/intimacy as a mirror or marker of emotional/spiritual/intellectual/whatever attraction-slash-intimacy.”
Oh… okay. Totally agree!
“I’d be curious to meet a guy who had sex with someone and DIDN’T even like them…”
In most cases it involved a man and a woman just meeting and being physically attracted to each other… the guy didn’t dislike the woman, but he didn’t much like her either, because he didn’t really know her. It was just a neutral feeling, as far as anything other than physical attraction went.
Thank you, Zek. Thanks a lot for making me realize one thing:
I AM MALE.
0_0
Ok, I’m not really. But the way you describe how guys feel about sex in a relationship… It’s me. That’s how I react. If I’m interested in a guy, if I want to be with him, I want to physically be with him, and after that I get quite attached and territorial.
(The only difference, I don’t want to make him into a “wifey” after sex, but I don’t want to cuddle and make sweet talk either… I’m one of those “fall asleep immediately after it” types. I don’t do that on purpose, it just happens). Sorry for TMI.
Oh, but I agree with Alee about this:
I have yet to see a regular guy who wanted to have sex with someone he thought was attractive but didn’t actually like.
I’ve met plenty of guys who do this. Heck, I’ve dated a guy who didn’t like me! (And who didn’t find me attractive, either). I know this for sure. It happens a lot.
Then again, I am not sure if guys are the only one who do it.
This was a great post, btw (I’m still laughing at the half-night stand), and it was quite insightful. However, it didn’t answer one important question: why does casual sex work much better for men than for women?
(Does it?)
Or is that guys a myth, born out of double standards. A man can’t say he dislikes one night stands! A woman can’t say she likes them? It’s all down to double standards… When will people get rid of them?
Speaking of which, and pardon my sexism (or don’t): I believe that the most important sexual thing a woman needs to know about a man before she dates him isn’t “how big is he”, “how long can he go”, “what’s his circumcision status” or even “can he find clitoris”. The most important sexual thing a woman needs to know about a guy before dating him, is: does he respect only women who withhold sex?
* – If he’s clean of STDs, is, obviously, more important, though.
Mira,
“Thank you, Zek. Thanks a lot for making me realize one thing:
I AM MALE.
0_0″
LOL.
Oh, I knew it! The guy gravatars were a dead giveaway.
“Then again, I am not sure if guys are the only one who do it.”
I don’t think they are…
The special man in my life sounds a lot like Zek. I would ask my boyfriend all the time while we were dating why he didn’t sleep around like the rest of the men I knew. I mean he had better qualities than any man I have ever dated. But unfortunately before I met him I dated quite a few guys in my life from all walks of life and nationalities, most of them if not all were very shallow with sex.
Nikisha,
LOL, don’t believe him. He used to be loose before he met me.
The way I get this post, he was loose but didn’t like it.
Lmbo!!! I know men get it in before they settle down with the “one”. My man got it in. But the men I’m talking about are just reckless with it. Those men that don’t care what you look like, don’t care if they like you or not, they just want to get off.
Mira, I got that impression as well.
But lol @ “loose” and “get it in”. You all are killing me…
But isn’t “loose” a pretty standard term?
Alee,
At least I didn’t say “loose as a goose”.
Mira,
Yea, I would say for Z that his attempts to go with the (casual sex) flow backfired, because he was always the one left wanting more. Of course, his plan of action wasn’t the best in SF, which has something like the highest proportion of singles out of the major US cities, but he was just too earnest and optimistic. Not surprising that he would end up with a cold, hard realist like me.
Mira, it is a standard term, but I found it funny because (a) it’s not as often applied to men and (b) I can hear the voice I have for Jasmin saying that (which is far from what she actually sounds like, but I still hear that voice anyway).
Jasmin,
I think many people do similar things: do what they think it’s expected behavior.
I think that when it comes to casual sex, many people look at this issue from moralizing POV, or double sexual standard POV. But the real problem with casual sex, I think, is that sex is never truly “casual”. It does create some sort of intimacy, some sort of response. Acting casually is cultural: we are taught not to pay attention to it. We are taught not to bring one night stand girl home to our mother (if we’re boys). We are taught not to want one night stands (if we’re girls).
But like this post proves, there’s not much difference between men and women; lol the only difference is cultural response.
And I have to say that, while I know many men who engage in casual sex and seem happy with it, I do know many men who don’t really like it. Not in a way of “ewwww, casual sex! Disgusting! Immoral!”, but in a Zek’s sort of way: been there, done that, didn’t really prove to be satisfying (emotionally, or even physically).
I am not a guy, but I do believe there are no two guys alike, and that sexual partners need some time to get to know each other sexually. A couple’s first time is often a great, emotional and bonding experience, but it’s rarely a great sex- no matter how good it is, it’s even better when you get to know what your partner likes. That’s why I don’t think one night stands are THAT great for guys even on pure sexual level.
Alee,
Mira, it is a standard term, but I found it funny because (a) it’s not as often applied to men
Ha! Well, nothing of this sorts is often applied to men. These terms reveal a lot about a culture’s norms concerning sexuality.
Anyway, I think this post is beautiful because it shows, I think, what sex-as-bonding truly is.
Consequently there is always that push and pull where a guy wants to go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go. Often it’s not because he’s “only interested in one thing” but because he’s trying to connect in the most fundamental, biological way he knows how.
I guess it’s the way I always understood sex to be. I don’t think it’s that different for men and women. They act differently, but that’s cultural.
Zek,
However, men DO want sex, and they usually want it early on. In relationships, most guys I know are hesitant to wait for long to have sex, even with women they really, really like.
Well, I AM a girl, but I don’t really understand why women withhold sex. I think it’s because women want to make sure the guy isn’t interested in sex only and that he’ll respect them. (But it’s silly. I sure wouldn’t want to be with a man who’d respect me only if I withhold sex?)
How to test men: have sex with them as soon as you feel like it. If it’s sooner than social norms “allow” you, even better. If he leaves and calls you a whore, consider yourself lucky: you don’t want to be with a guy who buys into these harmful double standards. And if he stays… great!
Mira,
How to test men: have sex with them as soon as you feel like it.
Haha, good test! But seriously, I think many women — many people — would be hesitant to do this only because they’re afraid of being used or whatever. Though they probably forget that you can just as easily get used even if you withhold sex.
why does casual sex work much better for men than for women?
I can only speculate, but in my experience it’s not just men who get away with copious amounts of casual sex… I think women can, and do, get away with it quite regularly, and in the “enlightened” sexually liberal paradise of the Bay Area, the meme seems to run the opposite of the stereotype. Straight men who have a lot of sex like a “player” seem to be held with slight derision, whereas women who do it seem to held as “empowered”. But then again, I’ve only seen this with White women, so maybe it’s just a privilege of race.
Nikisha,
Don’t trust Jasmin, she lies! Lies! Haha. *Mad Cackle*
Honestly I think a lot of the shallowness men have with regards to sex is enculturated, because when you get them to drop the facade and talk straight with you the response is MUCH different than the stereotypes or the horror stories.
Not that your special man isn’t special. He’s just not alone =)
Jasmin,
Cold hard realist? Psssh! As I recall you still cry at those Cotton(tm) commercials! =P
Anyhoo, back to Mira’s interesting tangent: The most important sexual thing a woman needs to know about a guy before dating him, is: does he respect only women who withhold sex?
I think if a man ONLY respects a woman who withholds sex, then yeah you could say he’s as shallow as a man who just wants to hit it & quit it. But at the same time, if a man waits a long time to have sex with a woman BECAUSE he already respects/likes her, then I’d say he’s likely just very effing patient.
Either way, withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man in a society with pretty open access to birth control and contraceptives seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame. Besides, I feel that with the cultural biases surrounding sex that a woman who withholds is going to be on the short end of the stick more often than the guy is going to be. And I mean mothballs a la coochie! ; )
Zek,
Haha, good test! But seriously, I think many women — many people — would be hesitant to do this only because they’re afraid of being used or whatever. Though they probably forget that you can just as easily get used even if you withhold sex.
Well, that’s what I did. Not as a test, I’d never do something like that to test a person, but I always had sex when I wanted it (provided the guy was eager to do it, too). And yes, there were disappointments. And yes, a guy left me after it and never called back.
But then again, I’ve been hurt many times, and usually it had nothing to do with how long I’ve waited (or not) for sex. A guy called me names (and I haven’t even had sex with him). People in school were slut-shaming me while I was still a virgin for saying sort of things I say here on this board. A guy hurt me badly with his cheating and disrespect that had nothing to do with sex. etc etc.
In short, yes, being disrespected for having sex too son sucks, and it can bring problems, but withholding sex isn’t a guarantee. I don’t even know how to do it anyway. I mean, I can’t really fall in love with a guy before it, and why would I spend 6 months or whatever is seen as a “good waiting period” with a person I’m not in love with?
I can only speculate, but in my experience it’s not just men who get away with copious amounts of casual sex…
I guess it must be a cultural thing, then. Here, only guys can get away with it. Girls are always slut shamed and ostracized. If you’re a girl and you have a one night stand with a guy, you can expect a call from a random guy you’ve never met (and I live in a city with 2 millions of people! Still, this sort of gossip spreads quickly).
But women here DO have casual sex; they just need to be careful. There are two rules: 1) nobody cares what you do if they don’t talk about it. 2) Go to another city, on a holiday, or somewhere where nobody knows you and can’t spread the rumours. It’s the only way.
I think if a man ONLY respects a woman who withholds sex, then yeah you could say he’s as shallow as a man who just wants to hit it & quit it.
Yes, that’s what I was talking about. I sure don’t want to imply that women who don’t want to have sex on a third date (or wherever) don’t deserve respect or that they’re dishonest. But if a man is unable to respect a woman who doesn’t wait for sex, then, I am sorry, but I can’t respect such a man.
And yes, there are PLENTY of guys (at least here) who’d never, never seriously date a “slut” = a girl who doesn’t withhold sex. They all divide women into two categories (it’s easy to guess which ones), and you can’t fit both. And then they whine about women not wanting to have sex. Well, why would I want to have sex with you if you’d call me a whore if I do it before you think it’s appropriate- even if I do it with YOU? Go satisfy yourself in a bathroom and stfu.
PS- Alee, your link to Zek’s site doesn’t work.
Correction: nobody cares what you do if you DON’T talk about it. If you talk, nobody cares if you did it or not, they will make you suffer for it.
Brotha Z,
I was definitely feeling this post. What a fresh perspective on this topic!
And I agree with Miss Mira – have sex when you are comfortable to do so. For me comfort means 1) I feel pretty confident I will hear from you the next day or 2) I don’t care if I hear from you the next day. …
Sherry,
Haha, I’m glad you enjoyed it sista =)
Seems like your comfort level for sex is pretty much the same as Mira’s, which I wholeheartedly approve!
I don’t think it’s comfort level for me… It’s more of “I don’t know how to do it differently”. I live in a very sexist society, where playing hard to get is seen as a crucial respect & relationship saving method.
But the thing is, for me, sex is (in a beginning, at least) about intimacy, and – just like you said – connecting someone you want to be closer with and withholding it ruins the dynamics of a relationship for me. I’ve been in a relationship where I waited (because of circumstances unrelated to witholding) and something just started to seem “off” after a while (about a month or two, just like you described). I didn’t feel like that guy was my boyfriend, not for real. (I might also add I never dated before I was ready to have sex; I didn’t go through the “holding hands” phase when I was 13. I wasn’t interested in boys at all until I was ready to have sex, I think).
So the waiting/withholding didn’t really work for me, and I am glad I’ve realized that early on. And yes, that DID bring some trouble, but it was helpful, in a way, too. It might sound cheesy, but I think it’s very important that a person stays true to herself in these matters, even if it’s not something society approves.
PS- And now that I read this I do try to free myself from double standards, but I guess they are in the back of my mind, so against everything I want to be when it comes to sexuality, I feel like I should add this disclaimer: I didn’t date that much at all. Guys never found me particularly attractive/interesting so I ended up having only a few boyfriends. Which kind of proves the point about my culture: the number of partners is not as important as the game you play. If you play it right (with the right amount of withholding, right public image and the ability to hide what you do), you can have many and nobody will ever call you a slut. But you can be a virgin and seen as a whore if you believe “there’s nothing wrong about women having one night stands”.
Remember what I wrote in the IR post about Americans sometimes focusing too much on the shell and not the essence? When it comes to sexuality and double standards, that’s exactly what people here do.
Oh, and btw, premarital sex is a norm, and everybody talks about sex a lot. I’ve never been with a foreigner so I can’t compare, but in my experience, guys try to portray themselves as more experienced and better in bed than they actually are. But the quiet, “geeky” or “shy” guys… they are a real deal!!!!
Because while “macho” guys talk about their sexual adventures over a beer, those guys actually have sex and put an effort into it, understanding that there is another person with them with her own sexual needs.
Whoops, sorry about the broken link, Z. Fixed. Thanks for the heads up, Mira.
Now, Mira, you said:
“How to test men: have sex with them as soon as you feel like it. If it’s sooner than social norms “allow” you, even better. If he leaves and calls you a whore, consider yourself lucky: you don’t want to be with a guy who buys into these harmful double standards.”
I don’t know how great this advice is. I mean, it could be very harmful if you’re in a situation where news spreads fast and where women are “slut-shamed” (small towns, activity groups, high school, etc).
If you do it “as soon as you feel like it”, without knowing if the guy is (a) trustworthy and (b) likes you and respects you, you could be in for a big surprise. In that he might tell everyone you all know, “She f*cked me on the first date!” and everyone will be giving you the “slut” side-eye, people will be spreading rumors about you possibly having an STD, and guys will try to talk to you just so they can get “f*cked” too (and if you deny them, they can just make something up and say you did it anyway!).
I actually know a girl who was in just this position. She loved the guy, and the guy promised he wouldn’t talk about it if they did anything intimate. It was high school, so of course he lied and told his friends, who told their friends, who told the whole high school. She was never really very popular (unlike the guy), so people relished in calling her “nasty” and doing mean things like never sitting next to her so they wouldn’t get “crabs”. She was depressed for a long time after this; it was a really bad situation.
So there are definite downsides to this in many cultures who only pay lip-service to sexual liberation for women.
—
And, Zek, you said,
“withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man in a society with pretty open access to birth control and contraceptives seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame.”
Is it? Maybe the woman just doesn’t want to get too emotionally attached so quickly? Maybe she wants to see if he actually likes her enough to respect her decision? Or maybe she wants to see how the relationship would develop without the interference of sex? Maybe she is worried about being “slut-shamed” for being intimate with a guy she hasn’t been seeing for that long?
It’s easy for men to say, “it’s lame to withhold sex” because they suffer essentially no ill consequences when they don’t. But you have to put yourself in the shoes of a woman, which is a little different in this arena.
*I’ve decided I’ll play devil’s advocate on this thread (as I always do…?).
@Mira
“How to test men: have sex with them as soon as you feel like it. If it’s sooner than social norms “allow” you, even better. If he leaves and calls you a whore, consider yourself lucky: you don’t want to be with a guy who buys into these harmful double standards.”
Now, this is one of those areas where I think there’s a clash between “enlightened, modern-day thinking” and our internal psychological wiring. And the latter often wins, even in a supposedly advanced, forward-thinking society.
Yes, theoretically it would be great for women to “test” men in this way. Some women I know HAVE done just that and it has worked for them.
However, I think it will be an utter failure for most women (in the United States, at least) and do little to help them achieve their ultimate goal — assuming that’s a relationship. Alee’s example is a great one of what happened when a woman tried that and how it backfired on her… I bet it took quite a while for that young woman to emotionally overcome that level of public shaming and humiliation, even though she did nothing wrong.
I know of older women (late 20s/early 30s) who are more confident in their sexuality and have had a number of partners, but if they are still single, they realize that they need to leave their current social milieu to find a long-term partner because they are now being perceived as having been “passed around” the current social group they are in. (ESPECIALLY if this is an all-black group… don’t get me started on the extremely reactionary standards that exist in the black community regarding sex!!!)
I’m a results-oriented person and am always looking for the strategy that gives me the best possible outcome, NOT the strategy that attempts to buck the system for the sake of bucking the system. While I do NOT tolerate men with harmful double standards (more on that later), I wouldn’t have sex with them quickly simply to test where they stand. I can usually get the answers that I need about their mentality through conversation.
It’s easy for men to say, “it’s lame to withhold sex” because they suffer essentially no ill consequences when they don’t. But you have to put yourself in the shoes of a woman, which is a little different in this arena.
Exactly, and I’m not playing devil’s advocate.
I guess I cannot quite understand the expectation that women should just get naked and intimate with random dudes they barely know just because they are starting to develop interest in them. I mean, THAT is what I consider lame thinking… like, really? How mature is that? I like you, so let’s just go have sex?
(Plus, let’s not forget that even with contraception, one is not protected against everything… and let’s also not get into the fact that no one talks about INFERTILITY being a growing result of STDs picked up in one’s past… so hmmm, I should put my ability to have children with my future husband at risk because some dude I met two weeks ago is hot and we went on three dates and it would be lame to wait? HA HA HA! Hubby also teaches human sexuality, and says his students are most shocked about the infertility discussions.)
Personally, I don’t care about slut-shaming or gaining “respect” by making a guy wait. I think those reasons are lame — plus, I don’t want a man who will judge me based on the time period that I spend waiting (short or long).
But waiting is a freakin’ brilliant choice for most women, and I dare say that more women would probably be able to navigate the dating and relationship minefield a million times better if they left sex out of the equation for a longer period of time. Women have honestly lost a lot of old school wisdom that worked in their favor for the sake of being supposedly liberated.
Bunny,
“…they are now being perceived as having been “passed around” the current social group they are in. (ESPECIALLY if this is an all-black group… don’t get me started on the extremely reactionary standards that exist in the black community regarding sex!!!)”
Yes. Let me also add that everyone in the above story I mentioned was black: the girl, the guy, and most of the people who were slut-shaming.
There are huge double standards within black communities regarding sex… if you’re a woman who has had lots of partners and people know about it, you can just kiss any social respect goodbye, because you are only “le whore” and nothing else. Meanwhile guys are praised.
A lot of the things I hear non-white women brag about I think, “What?” because if a black woman did those things, she wouldn’t get any kind of respect or even neutral treatment. But I guess this is to be expected since black communities never had any real feminist movement.
“Exactly, and I’m not playing devil’s advocate.”
Well, I wasn’t playing on that part.
I’m very serious that some men just don’t understand when it comes to this because they’ll never be in that position. And some people who live in extremely liberal parts of the country *ahem* also don’t understand.
“I guess I cannot quite understand the expectation that women should just get naked and intimate with random dudes they barely know just because they are starting to develop interest in them. I mean, THAT is what I consider lame thinking… like, really? How mature is that? I like you, so let’s just go have sex?”
LOL.
Bunny, I agree. I think it’s an “interesting” viewpoint… Mostly for reasons like the one you mentioned — for many people it can cloud their judgment, make relationships more difficult, cause them to become attached to someone too early on. There isn’t much harm in getting to know a person a bit better before doing something so intimate… is there? If you’re the type that can do it and be fine, then that’s great. But I notice many people fool themselves into thinking they can be more laid-back about it than they really can be.
But I don’t judge; it’s their life to live.
There are huge double standards within black communities regarding sex… if you’re a woman who has had lots of partners and people know about it, you can just kiss any social respect goodbye, because you are only “le whore” and nothing else.
I won’t reveal too much of my business here… ladies don’t “kiss and tell,”
, but I will say that during my more “liberal” period, only ONE person was black. I knew that if my goal was to have a bit of fun for a few years, I would not do so in the black community AT ALL. What also helped was the fact that I moved around a lot for career and educational purposes in the late 90s/early 2000s, so there was very little chance of any of social circles to ever connect in a Venn diagram kind of way. I was always a blank slate to various men I met!
(Although the crazy thing? That one black dude… he lives here in this city now. Of all the places he could have gone in the U.S. of A., his career path led him right here! And he met the hubster at a recent social event. ARGH!!!! I let on NOTHING, and neither did he, thank goodness. But can you imagine if I had stayed in my hometown all my life and dated within the same black, educated, middle class professional circle? Yikes! There’s just two degrees of separation between most of us, and I grew up in a pretty large city!)
I’m very serious that some men just don’t understand when it comes to this because they’ll never be in that position. And some people who live in extremely liberal parts of the country *ahem* also don’t understand.
True. I admit, I enjoy reading a lot of “Single in the City” blogs by women living in places like New York City, Boston, Washington D.C., San Francisco and Los Angeles. Maybe Chicago too. Every night seems to be full of fun things to do and crazy activities! And an endless supply of dudes! Ah, living vicariously…
And then, I wake up… and say I’m so glad I wasn’t trying to find a long-term partner in ANY of those cities! My Midwestern relationship ethic would totally clash with the “be free” ethos espoused in those very liberal cities. Although, I find it interesting that some of the women in such cities, when they reach their mid-30s, seriously start considering places like Minneapolis, Columbus, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Indianapolis, etc… places that are still interesting cities, but much more family and marriage oriented.
And yes, I’m not judging Zev or any others for their choices or feelings… my issue always came when men with this thought pattern projected it onto me and deemed me to be a cavewoman because I wanted to wait longer than two dates for sex.
And that always seemed to be the next step… lack of respect for my choice and a mocking of it as being unenlightened!
Bunny,
“That one black dude… he lives here in this city now….And he met the hubster at a recent social event. ARGH!!!! I let on NOTHING, and neither did he, thank goodness.”
Ha. Awkward… Well, at least it didn’t turn out as bad as it could have.
“I enjoy reading a lot of “Single in the City” blogs by women living in places like New York City, Boston, Washington D.C., San Francisco and Los Angeles.”
The bolded — aren’t so liberal!
Perhaps the non-black portions of those places… I agree with that. You can have fun on the town, and never have to worry about a thing.
But I have immediate family members who live in both of those areas and I have spent enough time in those areas to tell you the black communities are just like any other. If you do anything out of the ordinary, better make sure no one finds out about it. Unless you’re okay with being branded a certain “type” and having guys never see you as “wife material”.
I’ve seen more than one situation where a [black] guy meets a woman, likes her, and tells his buddies about her. But when he does, one of his buddies goes, “Oh ___? She f*cked me/my cousin” or “I know her! She s*cked me/this guy I know”. (The language is usually she did this and that, never we/they did this and that…) And the first guy either stopped talking to the woman or decided she was only good for a few romps.
It’s kind of interesting how liberal you boys and girls are with sex and the amount of partners.
The only girls who get away with sleeping with any guy she want are kasi girl who had sex since she was 12 anyway in my country. I think the middle class in my country is going back to more traditional values, IE, no sex before your wedding or your value goes down on the single market. There’s few enough educated black men and they can have their pick of the crowd.
I won’t say too much on this since i don’t really like it and I never seen the appeal of having casual encounters with strange people. But to each own
Bunny,
But waiting is a freakin’ brilliant choice for most women, and I dare say that more women would probably be able to navigate the dating and relationship minefield a million times better if they left sex out of the equation for a longer period of time. Women have honestly lost a lot of old school wisdom that worked in their favor for the sake of being supposedly liberated.
See, I can understand why you’d think this, but I just can’t agree. Because to me that seems to reduce male-female interactions into a power struggle. Why can’t it just be organic and happen when you feel right about it? I understand that there’s a fear of being used, or being slut-shamed, or having trouble with finding a Good Man ™, but at the same time it seems disingenuous to already view your attraction/interaction with someone you may be romantically interested in from the perspective that you need to get one-up on the guy from the get-go. That’s how I read your comment, at least.
Alee,
Is it? Maybe the woman just doesn’t want to get too emotionally attached so quickly? Maybe she wants to see if he actually likes her enough to respect her decision? Or maybe she wants to see how the relationship would develop without the interference of sex? Maybe she is worried about being “slut-shamed” for being intimate with a guy she hasn’t been seeing for that long?
My statement was directed more towards women who specifically hold off on sex as a means of control, manipulation y’know. And it does happen surprisingly often (but I wouldn’t call it common) such that guys are wary of being “tricked” into putting everything they have into a woman just so they can have sex with her because they want to be intimate with her in that way.
While that may sound like they just want to f*ck, it’s not exactly that. They want to have sex, yes, but it’s in that same vein of physical closeness as a means towards emotional closeness.
And where I come from, slut-shaming happens to men as often/much more often than for women, particularly in our “liberal” cities haha! (I myself an am example of this.) Although the nature and meaning of that shaming may be different than your ideas of slut-shaming. For men this means being held in suspicion by women, treated with some disdain, not taken seriously. And it’s hard to get a date.
But let’s flip the script. You said It’s easy for men to say, “it’s lame to withhold sex” because they suffer essentially no ill consequences when they don’t. But you have to put yourself in the shoes of a woman, which is a little different in this arena.
Yet men do suffer consequences for withholding sex: ridicule, shaming, questioning of their masculinity, accusations of impotency, etc. And these aren’t just done by other men too…
My point is that yes, women do have their own unique problems to deal with when it comes to sex, but so do men. So does everybody! And the changes in society in the last decades have shown us how our preconceived notions of gender dynamics have largely begun to clash with reality.
Speaking on behalf of the men I know, I think that in the context of this topic these are important considerations, especially considering there are so many women out there (in cyberspace… and beyond!) who are often heard decrying a lack of men, or the failures of men, or their need for a man — sometimes any man will do — but without critically examining, not just themselves, but the very real cultural hoops that Good Men ™ nowadays need to jump through.
As the saying goes, it ain’t easy being cheesy. (In a good way.)
Zek,
“Yet men do suffer consequences for withholding sex: ridicule, shaming, questioning of their masculinity, accusations of impotency, etc. And these aren’t just done by other men too…”
I’ve seen this, but it isn’t nearly as bad as the reverse situation. I just don’t think it is, and I can put myself in the situation because I hang out with lots of guys and I have a brother who I was/am very close to.
If a guy says that he wants to hold off on sex, his friends might tease him about it and women might think he’s a little shy or sensitive, but they won’t chastise him for it. (We’re not talking of a virgin here or someone who is waiting for marriage, just a guy who is waiting past a few dates.) When women jump right into bed, however…
But I have a feeling things might be slightly different in San Fran. The people I’ve known from the Bay Area are very liberal and casual, even to a person like me from one of the bluest states in the country (even bluer than Cali).
“My point is that yes, women do have their own unique problems to deal with when it comes to sex, but so do men.”
Do you really think that when it comes to sex, the consequences for men and women are equal? (I’m thinking this may be one of those areas where we’ll disagree, mightily.
)
Alee,
I’ve seen more than one situation where a [black] guy meets a woman, likes her, and tells his buddies about her. But when he does, one of his buddies goes, “Oh ___? She f*cked me/my cousin” or “I know her! She s*cked me/this guy I know”. (The language is usually she did this and that, never we/they did this and that…)
Very true, and I’ve heard the exact same things and seen the same situations. Probably another good thing for me that I didn’t join a black sorority either…
As for Boston and D.C., those blogs were written by white women, so that’s why their lives were probably more liberal and they could act in a no-strings-attached way.
Zev,
Why can’t it just be organic and happen when you feel right about it?
Because the world doesn’t work that way.
Never has and probably never will… I would never advise a woman in this manner if she is looking for a relationship. She has way too much to lose and it’s a rather basic and dare I say, foolish course of action. People just following their “feelings” and acting “organically” is simply a recipe for relational anarchy.
But I don’t see the situation as a power struggle either. Funny, it’s only men I find who try to frame it that way….
The mating dance has been going on for millennia, and I’ve realized pretty quickly that it’s rather naive and youthfully optimistic to think that just because a few million people in a few areas of the world over the last few decades have decided to put their own intellectual and philosophical spin on the process, they’re going to actually get men and women to act against thousands of years of basic human behavior and male/female psychology. Well, some might, but too many women are seeing how much of a losing bet that is. And they’re mostly right.
Nkosazana,
“It’s kind of interesting how liberal you boys and girls are with sex and the amount of partners.”
Who said “we” were liberal about that?
I don’t know about San Fran, but where I’m from, you’d better keep that number as low as possible if you carry two X chromosomes.
—
zek says:
“Why can’t it just be organic and happen when you feel right about it?”
Bunny says:
“Because the world doesn’t work that way.
”
Ha. I was going to respond to that (if it were directed to me): Yes, why can’t it?
But for me, it’s not about power struggle… or even about two people. It’s about one person — the woman and her relationship with herself. Adding sex to the mix, for some women, causes strong attachment, confusion, and other sorts of unnecessary complications. These things can cause further issues and even thwart the goal the woman is aiming for: a productive, long-term relationship. If you’re the kind of woman who knows she isn’t as clear-headed post-sex, or you understand yourself well enough to know that you’d make better decisions if you held off, then why not do it?
There seems to be this complete 180 where now people are made to feel abnormal or silly if they hold off, or like they have to have sex early on in order to keep a boyfriend. That’s as unfair as slut-shaming. Everyone is different and they shouldn’t have to be forced to fit into their society’s box of what’s “right” and “normal”.
But for me, it’s not about power struggle… or even about two people. It’s about one person — the woman and her relationship with herself.
Exactly. Whenever I was making a decision about sex — when to have it, when not to have it – it was only about me and my feelings. Now, I made sure to show a guy when I was interested that I was definitely feelin’ him… we didn’t exactly just hold hands! But overall, a decision to wait for a bit (whether a few more weeks or even months) was only about my feeling of comfort with becoming intimate with him.
There seems to be this complete 180 where now people are made to feel abnormal or silly if they hold off or like they have to have sex early on in order to keep a boyfriend. That’s as unfair as slut-shaming. Everyone is different and they shouldn’t have to be forced to fit into their society’s box of what’s right and “normal”.
Yes, this is the part I find quite bothersome about the whole thing. I do NOT slut-shame or advocate it… at the same time, I don’t try to ascribe any sort of sinister motivations to a woman’s decision to wait, which is why it’s rather off-putting when a man questions a woman as to why she’s waiting.
Even if she is playing a “power game,” it’s her body, right? And ultimately her choice as to when she shares it with another and who she shares herself with? If a man chooses not to wait, he can move on to a different partner with a similar thought process as his own. But if I say no to a man, there’s no further discussion. Either accept the “no” or move on. The cross examination of my motives and the reasons behind my decision is not necessary.
Alee,
Do you really think that when it comes to sex, the consequences for men and women are equal?
Honestly, I’m hesitant to answer that question. (Not because we may disagree “mightily” haha.) I feel that attempting to judge which form of shame or ridicule is worse is unfair, because people are all different and who can say who suffers worse from being called a “whore” except the person in question? But I also find it a waste of time, since whichever is worse doesn’t seem an adequate argument against dealing with either of them.
However, if you’re talking about prevalence, which one is more commonly found, then I think I can answer and say that it varies by region. (Something we’ve both noticed.) Different places have different norms and standards, and California — especially the Bay Area — is a unique region. But nonetheless, from the many articles I’ve looked at on these issues, particularly at The Good Men Project, the prevalence of slut-shaming men and general male/masculinity issues seems to be growing day by day. Or, at least, getting more press day by day.
But let me leave off by saying — in what may very well be called an exception to the rule — I was chastised for having “dated around” despite my intentions for doing so being to find a relationship. My friends judged me a little, the girls I met judged me A LOT, and I did get made fun of quite a lot. I remember a particularly nasty time when even my Dad and brother were giving me stern lectures based on my attempts to find a good relationship. (Albeit it in different ways, for different reasons — my Dad wanted me to hold off on serious relationships or dating around PERIOD.)
Bunny,
Because the world doesn’t work that way
Haha, I appreciate the straight answer! But I’m skeptical of Just-So Stories. They’re too often hallmarks of ignorance — racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, all forms of prejudice have elements of Just-So Stories in them where things are that way “just because”. I’m skeptical too because there ARE reasons for why things are the way they are, and examining those reasons, the causes, context, etc., provides a way of understanding them so we can change them. I mean, every successful social movement in the last 100 years of this country were based on opposition to the status-quo a la Just-So.
With regards to dating, sex, and relationships, as I said in my post we’ve all got exceptions that we know. There are stories and experiences and people that we can draw upon which inform our opinions. But I want to get past anecdotes and into the deeper reasons behind all of this interactions.
That aside, there are plenty of ways to screw up a relationship than just following your feelings or letting things develop organically. And even if you followed all of your own advice, it could still blow up in your face. But for me, trusting in my feelings and letting things develop naturally is honest. It may have caused me to suffer sometime really terrible heartbreak or look foolish when some girl kicked me to the curb after she was done with me, but at the same time it kept me whole through those experiences. You gotta protect yourself true, but you cannot protect yourself from sadness without also protecting yourself from happiness. And that, to me, is an irony too tragic to bear.
Anyhoo, I think we all (men and women) have got a lot to lose by opening ourselves up to others, sexually, emotionally, etc., but that’s the risk we make in trying to find someone to share our lives with. Yet people seem hesitant to take those risks; they prefer to “play it safe” and follow rules or tips, tricks, not do the things they really want to do. (In this instance, have sex.) But who suffers for that? Only yourself. And what’s worse, complaining about that yet being unwilling to forget what others make think of you and just do what you want to do — something which is pretty common among men and women — is DEFINITELY lame. When someone is upset because the guy/girl stops calling them after they were “playing it safe” for the long-term haul of a relationship, has that advice really helped them?
Call me naive, or idealistic, but people should be assertive and take personal responsibility for their own happiness, accept the consequences of that choice, and enjoy life to the fullest NOW — instead of vicariously thinking about a future that may or may not actually happen. This attitude helped me find the love of my life =)
But that’s not just one guy. I can point to many men who have experienced these same challenges, and my ideas are found in them as much as in myself.
This post is so popular! So I’ll answer one by one if you don’t mind.
Alee,
I don’t know how great this advice is.
It wasn’t advice. I was joking. I don’t test people (even when it’s wise to do so).
I mean, it could be very harmful if you’re in a situation where news spreads fast and where women are “slut-shamed” (small towns, activity groups, high school, etc).
Small town? Alee, I live in a city of 2 million + people. News like this spread faster than light. That’s how my culture is.
In that he might tell everyone you all know, “She f*cked me on the first date!”
First date? Here, guys will tell that even if there were more dates. Sometimes, you don’t need to have sex with them to be called a slut. Sometimes, wearing a short skirt is enough. No kidding. Did I mention my culture was sexist (and proud of it)?
All in all, yes, I live in a culture that is really sexist and where men AND women do everything they can to slut shame women who don’t “play by the rules” (= don’t withold sex or are stupid enough not to hide it).
Still, if withholding is something so alien to you and something that can make you unable to have a long term relationship, then going against how you feel is not the smartest thing. Sure, your reputation will be intact, but you’ll still be miserable when it comes to love and relationships. (Which is seen as much better than to be labeled a slut, though).
However, I agree with this:
It’s easy for men to say, “it’s lame to withhold sex” because they suffer essentially no ill consequences when they don’t. But you have to put yourself in the shoes of a woman, which is a little different in this arena.
Men have no idea what is like to be slut shamed and to suffer serious consequences about it. Your social life can be ruined. Your professional life can be ruined. Not to mention that in some cultures your life, period, can be ruined and you could get killed. In this situations, staying true to your sexual needs might not be the most important thing. When sex stops being a personal thing and becomes public – and all the slut shaming is about it – then a person WILL think twice before doing something that can ruin her reputation.
Bunny,
“Now, I made sure to show a guy when I was interested that I was definitely feelin’ him… we didn’t exactly just hold hands!”
‘Even if she is playing a “power game,” it’s her body, right? And ultimately her choice as to when she shares it with another and who she shares herself with?’
Yes. At the end of it all, it’s her body and no one has the right to it. A person, whether male or female, sharing their body with you is a privilege they give on their own time. Not a right that you have when you feel they should be ready.
—
zek,
“I feel that attempting to judge which form of shame or ridicule is worse is unfair, because people are all different and who can say who suffers worse from being called a “whore” except the person in question?”
I’m not talking about individual “suffering”, but the how extensive and widespread the consequences are.
“However, if you’re talking about prevalence…”
Yes, I am.
“Then I think I can answer and say that it varies by region…”
I agree that it varies, but I think in general, the consequences for women are more — both more extensive and more widespread. I’m sorry but you just can’t tell me that the consequences are even close to the same in non-Western regions like the Middle East, Western Africa, or the Balkans.
psshhhhh. I agree with the stuff AFTER this part:
“Just like women, men experience a period of increasing emotional attachment after sex. But unlike women, men don’t typically ask to cuddle afterwards. Instead they try to turn the girl into a wifey – the woman they plan to be with for life. The guy thinks, “That was some hot shit. I need to keep this girl around!”
A guy can become territorial after only one encounter – even if it was only making out! This sense of ownership and possession may be inbred or enculturated in men; I’m uncertain its origin, but its existence is clear. What’s weirder, men are likely to hold on to that feeling even after the relationship is over and a woman has begun seeing someone else.”
^^^^that part though…none of that stops a guy from sleeping with a girl and NOT wanting a committed relationship with her…might be out of fear since many are walking around with trust issues and nursing a broken heart, but it’s not like him liking you and showing evidence of emotional attachment will translate into him moving it into committed relationship status…which is usually what a girl is looking for after she develops the above attributes.
It’s funny how this topic evolved to “number of partners”. “Having sex whenever you feel like it” does not equal “having sex with random people” or even “having sex with many partners”.
I am sure I’ve had less partners than many women who pay attention to waiting and withholding. And I’m not the only one. On the other hand, I’ve met many “nice girls” who just go… wild on holidays and later don’t even count those encounters. And I’ve met “nice girls” who use sex (or lack thereof) to manipulate men and gain “respect”. In this process, they do much slut shaming to other women. How many times I’ve heard a woman being called a whore and a slut and what not just because she dressed provocatively? These “nice girls” are mean and want to make other women seem unworthy of respect in order to elevate themselves, I guess.
It’s not really about what women do, you know? It’s about what others THINK they do.
So, all in all, what I was talking about was never about the number of partners. It’s more of the way how I felt about the whole thing, on how to connect to a partner and how waiting might not be perfect thing for all the people and especially how withholding sex can be used with mean intentions of gaining power and control. Just think about it: yes, withholding sex can bring you respect, but do you really want to be respected by people who wouldn’t respect you otherwise? As a human being, because of who you are? I sure know I wouldn’t want to be respected because of my vagina (and the near zero number of men that were allowed to go inside of it). I am not my vagina, I am a person, and if you’re unable to respect me as such, then GTFO. I don’t need you or your “respect”.
That being said, though: Zek, nope, men do not suffer this kind of consequences. It’s simply not the same. But the double standard hurts men, too, but in a different way.
I don’t know how this fits into the current conversation (very interesting, to say the least), but last night, I asked Z if he would want to have casual sex with me if I were the type to have casual sex, and he said yes….but he would probably want more, so the sex ultimately wouldn’t be casual.
For me, that’s the thing. I don’t want to have sex with someone until our relationship has progressed to a certain point (generally, to the point that we’re exclusive), so my “sex” button only goes off in contexts where casual sex is already off the table. But, I speak from the perspective of someone who gets approached on a regular basis and has never doubted that there would be guys interested in me at a given time, so maybe I would feel different if I had ever had a period where I was horny with no prospects.
Anyway, to me, the cons of casual sex outweigh the pros. I don’t think first-time sexual encounters are particularly great (you need practice fitting together, time to learn about each other’s desires, etc.), I’m certainly not going to risk STDs or pregnancy for some random dude, and there’s always the potential of one person wanting more and leaving things awkward, with hurt feelings to boot.
Z himself is evidence that a double standard exists, and it is alive and well. Before we even dated, he said that if he thought about another guy kissing me, he would want to punch him in the face. So what would he think if I had f*cked another guy?
The moral of the story? There’s nothing objectively wrong with casual sex, but given the risks, a) there’s no reason to do it unless you really want to (being pressured to is not cool) and b) you have to be cognizant of the fact that you’re taking a big gamble on the other person’s feelings being what you want them to be. Eh, too much work for me.
Mira,
“It wasn’t advice. I was joking.”
Ha, okay. You need to use more smilies.
“Small town? Alee, I live in a city of 2 million + people. News like this spread faster than light. That’s how my culture is.”
Well, yes. I come from a large city as well, and news still spreads there. But I was just using that as an example of when it will definitely be an issue.
“First date? Here, guys will tell that even if there were more dates.”
Another yes. Just using examples.
The girl in the story above spoke to the guy for months (and knew him for longer); they went on unofficial dates without ever doing anything. Yet she was still labeled a “nasty, ugly slut”, mainly because she wasn’t in an official relationship with the guy and he made it seem like he was never interested in being in one with her (which I don’t think he was…) but she still agreed to it anyway.
—
Eloquence,
“it’s not like him liking you and showing evidence of emotional attachment will translate into him moving it into committed relationship status…”
Yes. And the feelings of attachment aren’t going to last for very long, depending on the guy. You’re going to need something more substantial to make him want to commit for a longer period.
Zev,
I’m not “just-so” about everything… and there has been some needed change in the area of sexual relationships in the last century. I’m very glad women in Western countries aren’t being judged in a general sense as being better “quality” because they’re virgins or because they’ve only slept with one man before marriage (usually the guy they ended up marrying).
However, when it comes to my own personal choices and those of others, “because the world doesn’t work that way,” is a perfectly fine answer that does not need to be justified. If my answer is no, it’s no. A man can take it or leave it. Such a personal choice has no bearing on the progress of a racial or ethnic group, does not harm anyone and ultimately has no bearing on anyone other than the man and woman in question.
Now as for this topic, you did what worked best for you and ended up with a wonderful relationship with a wonderful woman. Great and I applaud you for being your authentic self.
However… I don’t know if you’re just doing this for the sake of discussion (which I can understand), but I find it interesting that you seem to be disregarding and even dismissing very legitimate points of view that women are making based on THEIR own truths as well. I have seen men who classify themselves as open-minded, liberal types being prone to do this. They feel they need to question women as to WHY they feel a certain way (if it’s traditional), WHY they behave in certain traditional ways, WHY they don’t examine the reasons behind their thinking (with the assumption that they have not truly thought about why they act the way they do, or otherwise, they would be more “free”)
And it’s very clear after going back and forth with them that only ONE answer is truly acceptable… and that any answer other than, “you should do what feels right when it comes to sex” is the WRONG answer.
And sorry, but that’s far from being progressive and enlightened. Dare I say it even comes off as another way to control female sexuality? Any time any man is subtly or not-so-subtly insisting that a woman who makes her sexual decisions with any thought beyond “it should just feel right” is somehow wrong in her thinking IS attempting to assert a level of control over her by placing judgment on her based on HIS beliefs.
Liberal thinking present the exact same issues as conservative thinking in such matters, just from a different angle. I’m glad I stopped falling for that…
Jasmin,
There’s nothing objectively wrong with casual sex, but given the risks, a) there’s no reason to do it unless you really want to (being pressured to is not cool) and b) you have to be cognizant of the fact that you’re taking a big gamble on the other person’s feelings being what you want them to be. Eh, too much work for me.
Totally agree. If you want to have casual sex, go for it. If you don’t, don’t do it.
And if a woman says she doesn’t want to do it, a man should move on and stop asking her about it and playing amateur psychologist to find out why she doesn’t want to do it!
Alee (and Jasmin): As you probably know, there’s no such a thing as “non-exclusive” relationship in my culture. Ok, maybe there are isolated cases (and fuck buddy institution sure exists), but relationships are exclusive by default. You simply don’t go out on a date with me one day and with another girl tomorrow and expect me not to get pissed. You can go out, sure, as friends. But not “a date”.
That being said, a date is not considered real until people tongue kiss, so maybe that’s the exception to the rule.
Anyways, if you’re dating someone = you are in a relationship = he’s your boyfriend. If one of you goes out with another person, that’s cheating. Doesn’t matter if you were together for 3 weeks or 3 years before it.
Now, “casual sex” in my culture can mean a lots of things. Sure, it can mean one night stands, fuck buddies and that sort of things. But being a relationship doesn’t mean you’re free to have sex and enjoy – you can still be slut shamed. We don’t count dates here, we count the whole relationship. “I fucked her after three weeks!” is someone a guy would tell his friends. = she’s a whore. In those three weeks they were going out, texting, doing anything that a couple does. Doesn’t matter, she’s a whore. Guys here expect you to say no to their advances; you must carefully calculate the time to have sex: wait too little, and you’re a whore, wait too much, and he’ll leave.
I have NO idea what’s acceptable period, but in your teens, it’s about 4-6 months (I think?). A year, if it’s your first time. But no more (the guy will leave), and no less, because you’ll be seen as a whore.
So, in a way, guys use withholding as a test, not girls: if she says no, she is worth of my respect. If she says yes, I’ll fuck her and leave (to find a nice girl who is not a slut). Either way, he wins.
Bunny,
“Liberal thinking present the exact same issues as conservative thinking in such matters, just from a different angle. I’m glad I stopped falling for that…”
Seriously! Some liberals are too much with their bullheadedness about being liberal in nearly everything. Actually, liberals can be more annoying where I’m from, because there are way more of them (where I am now, though, it’s all about the conservatives). It’s always, “What?! How could you believe that? You’re a prude/uptight/old-fashioned/stupid.” Well, gee, thanks. I was just presenting the other side of things…
—
Mira,
“…being a relationship doesn’t mean you’re free to have sex and enjoy – you can still be slut shamed. We don’t count dates here, we count the whole relationship.”
Oh yes, that happens here too sometimes, but not as often. You’re on a little safer ground if you can at least call the guy your boyfriend, i.e. he’s made a clear commitment to you.
Unpopular Opinion: I think most (many? some? take your pick) guys want casual sex to always work out in their favor. Which is a human trait (wanting things to work in your favor), but in terms of sex only guys have the power to act on it, because of gender stereotypes and the patriarchy and all that. So guys want to have casual sex with no messiness when it suits them (i.e., when they don’t really like the girl), but they don’t want casual sex to lead to rejection (i.e., when the girl doesn’t like them). All these rules about who’s a good girl and who’s a slut are just escape routes so that they (guys) never have to be put on the spot. In the former situation, if the girl catches feelings they can just say, “Hey it was casual, loosen up prude blah blah blah”, and in the latter situation, if they get rejected they can call her a slut and save some pride.
Jasmin,
Huh, I just thought they had double standards, were hypocrites, and wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
Alee,
Pretty much.
It’s funny how this topic evolved to “number of partners”. “Having sex whenever you feel like it” does not equal “having sex with random people” or even “having sex with many partners”.
It said one night stands = most often someone you just met. And in my experience people who have ONS tends to have quite a few of them.
Anyway this whole topic makes me feel inexperienced and a bit awkward. It’s like that when I get together with my female Swedish friends and the holy sex topic comes up and they starts to discuss who they dragged home at the bar last weekend.
It’s especially awkward when they come to me and ask me what’s it is like with a black man and what the different there is between BM/WM and then I have to make up things to not seem like a looser and make them feel like prudes.
@Jasmin,
I’d have to be out of mind to ever take a guy’s advice to “just do it” when it comes to casual sex… not after hanging with so many athletes, listening to my brother and his friends talk about this, and having close guy friends. Yeah, right. It’s never as uncomplicated as they make it seem.
And, regardless of what they say, they always feel a certain way about a woman who jumps into things early (like first date kind of early). It’s can range from, “cool a liberal chick, we’re gonna have some fun” to “how many other guys has she done this with?” to “well I guess she’s not my type”. But there is usually some type of judgment.
Jasmin,
As ugly as this sounds, I do think you’re right about people who know they can get a date choosing different approaches than those who don’t. Sometimes, this leads to a stereotype of a “fat girl” who sleeps around because guys wouldn’t be interested in her otherwise.
But it doesn’t have to be about pleasing guys at all (who cares about that, lol <- Zek will hate me for this). The fact you're not considered attractive/can't get a date easily influences the choices you make because of YOU, too. I was one of those girls who was rarely approached and who never dated much. And yes, that made me feel lonely and unwanted so often. I don't think it made me "desperate" in a way of "I'll do anything to get a date", but it did make me feel like dates and attention from guys are something special that doesn't happen often.
For example, I've met my first boyfriend (= first guy who kissed me) while I was at an astronomy competition in a small Serbian town. We were there for 4 days or so. I met the guy the first day and he seemed to like me (woooooow!!!!) And I liked him. Waiting wasn't an option; I mean, I could have waited, but then I'd get back home unkissed lol So of course I went with it. And yes, that's all that happened (we'd meet every night, and just walk and kiss in a park. It was sweet, now that I think about it. And I won golden medal at the competition, along with my best friend. Oh, those were the days!).
The point is, when guys (or girls) aren't really interested in you, you simply don't take these things for granted.
Unpopular Opinion: I think most (many? some? take your pick) guys want casual sex to always work out in their favor. [...] So guys want to have casual sex with no messiness when it suits them (i.e., when they don’t really like the girl), but they don’t want casual sex to lead to rejection (i.e., when the girl doesn’t like them).
This is true. I do know that some slut shaming is just guys making double standards work in their favor. (That’s why many guys call you a whore/slut when you actually say no to them). It’s easy to do it. And it’s helpful for their egos.
On the other hand, women DO actively use slut-shaming and sex-withholding to their advantage, namely, to gain respect. Let’s not pretend it isn’t so. They, too, try their best to make double sexual standards work in their advantage. But unlike men, they don’t want to make the other gender look bad, but their own.
Nkosazana,
It said one night stands = most often someone you just met. And in my experience people who have ONS tends to have quite a few of them.
Oh, sorry. I didn’t get it. I thought you were talking about the “having sex whenever feel like it”. Just for the record, I didn’t mean “whenever feel like it” in a way, “oooh, I feel like having sex tonight, but I’m single, so I’ll just go to a bar and pick a random guy”. I mean as “I’m in a relationship with this guy and I want to have sex with him, even though rules of the game say I have to wait 3 months more”.
Anyway this whole topic makes me feel inexperienced and a bit awkward.
Why? There’s nothing “awkward” about not having many sexual partners. After all, we all know sexual experience is best gained by having sex with the same partner numerous times, NOT by having sex with numerous people once.
It’s especially awkward when they come to me and ask me what’s it is like with a black man and what the different there is between BM/WM
Huh? We all know the difference: black men like rap music, whites like football.
and then I have to make up things to not seem like a looser
That is silly. Not having many sexual partners doesn’t mean a person is a loser. Being a virgin doesn’t mean a person is a loser (though some virgins, particularly male ones, think it does mean they’re losers).
Nkosazana,
“Anyway this whole topic makes me feel inexperienced and a bit awkward.”
Don’t feel that way. People always seem more experienced than they are when discussing topics like this.
“It’s especially awkward when they come to me and ask me what’s it is like with a black man…”
People who ask these sorts of questions get the blank stare from me. You should try it, especially since in your case, that would really be the answer anyway.
Miss Alee made a good point about being in high school and some of the ridiculous behavior that goes on. In general, I think folks should wait until 18-20 to have sex because it isn’t just fun and games, There are powerful feelings/hormones at work, socio-political forces, AND it is an activity that can result in procreation, and I think that the typical teenager is not mature enough to deal with all that.
Sex does complicate things and so taking some extra time and care makes sense. But the bottom line for me is that I am NOT supporting the double standard. I think that if a woman is true to her nature and healthy emotionally, she will make good choices more often than not. Take all the time YOU need to, and tell everyone else to sityouassdown!
Now having said that, all of this “save it until the wedding night” is naive and ridiculous to me. Do you really want to find out then that you have a F-R-E-A-K on your hands? No.Thank.You.
This might be surprising to the ladies reading, but many guys are like me and don’t just want a bunch of random sex, especially when it’s the woman doing the dumping afterwards.
While this is no doubt true of yourself, and no doubt you are an ‘exception’ to the well documented generalization that for the most part, males are more into casual sex than females.
Like you, I live in the Bay Area … like you I am Jewish, and a musician. While I won’t refer to myself as any sort of anthropologist, I can use Google, and when I do …. this is what I find.
There is an entire INDUSTRY based around men trying to “score” with as many women as possible. The “pick up” community is known far and wide, it has been discussed on countless blogs, including this one, and as far as I can tell, the entire PUA industry exists because men want casual sex partners … as many as they can find.
There is an even larger industry focused on women offering themselves sexually to men in exchange for hard cash. What is known as the ‘world’s oldest profession’ does not occur to me as getting any less popular as time goes by … in the Bay Area alone there seem to be many thousands of attractive women who offer casual, no strings attached sex to men who seem to line up to pay for such things …. just do a search for “escorts” and you’ll certainly agree that there is no shortage of interest in such a thing.
And so now when I go check out the local Craigslist and see how many “casual relationship” personal ads were placed today, when I filter out the obvious hookers, the ratio of men to women looking for casual sex partners if at least an order of magnitude greater, if not more.
So you are an exception to the generalization, and I guess my reaction is “so what?” Obviously there will be some exceptions to any given generalization.
But I can’t find any evidence that the basic generalization being discussed here does not hold true. It pretty much occurs to me as basic biology … mating behavior starts to make a lot of sense once one assume that humans are doing whatever they think they need to do to get their DNA into the next generation of people … there are countless books available on Amazon that decode human sexual behavior and explain where all the double standards come from, why they exist, and why they persist long after the source of the double standards don’t apply any more.
The Madonna/Whore thing occurs to me as very real … this blatant double standard is all over our culture … on the cover of so many magazines … in all of our subconscious minds. I’ve long ago accepted that my standards are pretty deeply ingrained … both sets …. they defy any logic … and they seem to stand the test of time. So when I hear the ‘exception” speaking up, like you did … I sort of shrug and say “whatever”. For the most part, men gravitate towards casual sex like moths to flames. Such is why the world’s oldest profession remains so to this day. As I said, do your own Google search and let me know what you come up with.
Rob,
I’m not an American, but for some reason I believe prostitutes and PUA aren’t really a true representation of general population. While there are valid reasons why both appear (I’m not sure if the reason is the same in both cases, though).
That being said… Basic biology? In what way? Are you referring to Madonna/Whore thing, or men want to fuck everything that moves and women want a stable relationship with a man who can provide? Or what?
Because, I can guarantee you none of it is biology. I mean, just take a look at the animals. (I usually dislike animal comparisons because human, unlike animals, have a culture, but even animals DON’T behave the way they “should” if said mechanism of sexual strategy is “biological”).
I mean, if you take a look at the animals, you can safely conclude that is “natural” for men, not women, to dress up, wear makeup and be pretty, and that is “natural” for women to have sex with as many men as they can when they’re aroused… Because that’s exactly what animals do. Still, people don’t do it. So it has to be that their behavior is shaped by something that is not biological. I wonder what that might be…
Alee,
I’d have to be out of mind to ever take a guy’s advice to “just do it” when it comes to casual sex… not after hanging with so many athletes, listening to my brother and his friends talk about this, and having close guy friends. Yeah, right. It’s never as uncomplicated as they make it seem.
Yep, pretty much.
I can appreciate that Zek (sorry for getting your name wrong in an earlier post) has a different perspective on casual sex and a woman’s approach to it. That’s great. But what Rob said is honestly much closer to the reality of sexual interactions for most people today, even in this more supposedly enlightened time.
One can take an idealistic approach to “traditional” gender-based thinking about sex, but I’m most interested in taking (and giving) advice that’s effective and provides the best outcomes for a woman in today’s reality, not a reality that we wished existed. Plus, I find that people can think one way in theory (i.e. “I’m fine with a girl who’s into no-strings-attached sex.”) but find that in reality, they’re making those judgments they thought they were “above” making. Let’s just say that I know more than a few women who were downright shocked when that open-minded, liberal guy they were dating briefly suddenly became Mr. Caveman after they had sex… and before anyone says, “That’s good, you can dump him,” I say that it’s not so great if that woman bought into what he was selling, only to find out that he was full of it… maybe Zek wouldn’t have been that type of guy, but I wouldn’t advise a woman to take her chances on finding a Zek among the crowd.
And I’ll end by saying what I usually do in such situations… I wonder how many of the men who encourage a more organic approach to sexuality for women will eventually advise their daughters in this manner? Perhaps a little age, time, gray hairs and more realistic understandings of how men in general think will cause them to advise a little differently when it’s their own girls involved in the dating world.
Bunny,
I say that it’s not so great if that woman bought into what he was selling, only to find out that he was full of it… maybe Zek wouldn’t have been that type of guy, but I wouldn’t advise a woman to take her chances on finding a Zek among the crowd.
I think i understand what you’re saying, but the selling and buying doesn’t really sound… right to me. These are intimate relationships we’re talking about. It’s not market. I don’t know.
But, here’s the thing. To some women, myself included, finding a “Zek” among the crowd is the only way. Because some women (myself included) don’t want to be with a non-Zek kind of a guy. Not because we want to have sex on a first date; maybe we’ll wait (because we want to) , but we simply don’t want to be with a “caveman”. (= a guy with such views on sex). To some of us, it is very important. Extremely important. Maybe not THE most important thing, but definitely one of the most important things.
I don’t want to be with a man who thinks women are sluts, even if he respects me. With a man who’d talk bad about a woman because she had sex on a third date or because her skirt is “too short”. I wouldn’t want such a man to raise my son or my daughter. I wouldn’t want such a man’s respect, because I don’t have respect for men who think and behave like that.
So yes, “Zeks” are rare, but for some women, finding one is very important.
Miss Mira,
You said it better than I ever could.!
What I’m saying is (and sorry for using actual names for this example): I don’t want “rob’s” respect, because I don’t respect people who think like him. I don’t want to be with such a guy, even if he sees me worthy of his attention (and this type of men DO treat me good because I dress modestly and appear asexual and just like a “nice, honorable girl”). So it’s not like I’m bitter at the way they treat me. I can’t help it, I simply have no respect for those people. I can tolerate many things, but not this one (not even for a friend, let alone a partner).
I was ready to be single for years (and I was) because I’ve realize “zek” is the only type of a person I can be with. If it means to be alone otherwise, I’ve realized, so be it. But I simply couldn’t be with a man who is unable to respect women as human beings, as human beings in true, full sense of the word.
By the way, in my experience, men who “respect” only “nice women” are not restricted to prejudice in this department. It’s often clear this respect is not a full respect at all, and they often prove to hold other type of prejudice and questionable behavior.
So men who buy into Madonna/Whore dichotomy are a huge red flag to me.
mira
I was referring to any of Anne Moir’s work … or any of a dozen similar books you can find on Amazon focusing on the reasons men and women behave the way they do with regards to sexual behavior, and how much of what we refer to as “double standards” has to do with basic reproductive strategy regardless of current views on gender roles. The past fifty years is obviously like a speck of dust in the evolution of our species … and so many people pretty much behave the way they have always behaved
Regarding respecting women as human beings, I’m not sure I understand what you were saying or implying. I was reporting the results of a Google search …. when I search “escorts” I see countless ads from women making themselves available sexually to men in exchange for money, and I see no ads from men making themselves available to women in exchange for money. So I’m making the assumption the reason this is what I’m seeing on Google is because there exist countless men out in the world willing to pay for casual, no strings attached, sex …. thus there is a market for the services provided by prostitutes.
Nowhere did I state my personal opinion of the above fact, I’m just reporting the “news”
Robs entire viewpoint seems to be based on his finding on the internet instead of actually real life experience.
Anyway, I personally judge a woman more harshly on the amount of men shes had sex with in her life more than how long it took for her to have sex with me. I don’t think most American guys judge a woman as harshly on how quickly you have sex with them as alot of women think, but if you give it up quickly there needs to be a very strong connection before the sex, or we will value you alot less.
For example, I met a girl on a Friday night once, hit it off very strong, hung out the rest of the weekend with her having a great time, had sex Sunday night, and things went great for a few months, until we split up because I moved. Two days might seem like a short time, but the bond we built in that time was alot stronger than some women who have waited 2 or 3 weeks to have sex with me.
And if I don’t get a kiss on the first date, unless I know the woman is extremely conservative before hand, I will write her off instantly. If she consumed a single drop of alcohol during the first date, shes not conservative enough to be an exception to this rule.
I have lots of great rules that work wonders for me lol
rob,
I don’t have a credit card (or money for that matter) to get those books, so please describe what’s so revolutionary about them. I say you can’t deny CULTURE when it comes to human beings, and yes, culture usually wins over biology. Double standards exist because that’s how people organized their culture, not because that is the best biological strategy. Because, surprise!- we’re not animals and we often DON’T choose what is best, in terms of biology or so many other things.
The past fifty years is obviously like a speck of dust in the evolution of our species …
You don’t say. And look, double standards appeared only in the last couple of thousands of years or so… which is like a speck of dust in the evolution of our species. Homo Sapiens Sapiens exists much longer than the double standards. So how come our ancestors survived without it, if it’s the right reproductive strategy for us, but, strangely, not for the other species on Earth?
Regarding respecting women as human beings, I’m not sure I understand what you were saying or implying.
I am talking about respecting women as human beings, as equal subjects. Not objects for fulfilling certain needs (not restricted to sex). There are men who are unable to see women as fully human.
I was reporting the results of a Google search …. when I search “escorts” I see countless ads from women making themselves available sexually to men in exchange for money, and I see no ads from men making themselves available to women in exchange for money.
Do you want me to share some links? I am sure you do realize there are male escorts, though I guess there are less of them than the females. But you know what? A “loser”, unattractive guy can’t easily get sex, so he might pay for it. A “loser”, unattractive woman can generally get sex more easily, without having to pay for it. Why would I pay for something I can get for free?
Nowhere did I state my personal opinion of the above fact, I’m just reporting the “news”
I wasn’t really talking about you personally. Sorry if it seemed I was trash talking about YOU as a person. But the way you talked it did seem you agree with Madonna/Whore dichotomy (and it sure seemed you strongly disagree with Zek), so I took it as a proof of your opinion being the opposite of his. Sorry if I made a mistake.
That guy,
lol at “rules”. But rules are to be broken, right?
but if you give it up quickly there needs to be a very strong connection before the sex, or we will value you alot less.
This line implies you believe a woman has something to give, or to fight against “giving it up”. Which is, um… a bit sexist way to look at things?
But I agree about having a connection being more important than the time. Sometimes, people simply “click” and get along quickly. So after only a few days it seems you know them for a long time.
Anyway, I personally judge a woman more harshly on the amount of men shes had sex with in her life more than how long it took for her to have sex with me.
But how would you know how many partners she’s had? You can’t know this. That’s why many men “play it safe” and go with what they DO know, such as: how long it took her to have sex with them.
lol
“But how would you know how many partners she’s had? You can’t know this. That’s why many men “play it safe” and go with what they DO know, such as: how long it took her to have sex with them.
lol”
Usually by doubling the amount that she claims to have had sex with. And by how comfortable she is in talking about her sexuality. And if the number is too high, I can usually tell just by the way she talks when the topic comes to sex and don’t even need to ask, so I don’t. The only time I would consider asking is if I’m looking for a longterm relationship. Usually start by asking how many longterm relationships shes had before, and get a feel from things from there. Its not like I straight out ask them haha. Though some woman aren’t afraid to brag, which I find interesting.
I”ve found the only women hesitant to talk about how many previous partners they’ve had are ones who I’ve found out later to have had too many. Every girl I’ve dated who have only had 2 or 3 (or less) aren’t afraid to come out and say so, since they know most other women their age have alot higher numbers I guess.
Usually by doubling the amount that she claims to have had sex with.
A good one! Does it work for men? (Divide the number he claims with two)?
And by how comfortable she is in talking about her sexuality. And if the number is too high, I can usually tell just by the way she talks when the topic comes to sex and don’t even need to ask, so I don’t.
Ok, uh. This is a mistake. It’s quite misleading. Did you read when I said I was slut shamed while being a virgin? There are many women who are comfortable talking about their sexuality. It proves nothing. In fact, those who talk the most… you get the idea. Those who keep their mouth shut are the ones who’d have a lot to talk about!
So you might think twice about this method. Unlike the first one, which is perfect, this doesn’t give reliable results.
Though some woman aren’t afraid to brag, which I find interesting.
I guess they’re too sick of hearing men brag about it. lol
I”ve found the only women hesitant to talk about how many previous partners they’ve had are ones who I’ve found out later to have had too many.
Virgins, too, are sometimes hesitant to talk about the number of partners.
Every girl I’ve dated who have only had 2 or 3 (or less) aren’t afraid to come out and say so, since they know most other women their age have alot higher numbers I guess.
Ha! Like I said, women do like to slut shame other women, at least in their head.
I don’t like talking about the number of partners, not because I think the number is too high (or too low), but because it says nothing about me as a person.
“A good one! Does it work for men? (Divide the number he claims with two)?”
Yes. lol. Though most men who really do get laid alot will lie to you and say much less than they really have had.
“Ok, uh. This is a mistake. It’s quite misleading. Did you read when I said I was slut shamed while being a virgin? There are many women who are comfortable talking about their sexuality. It proves nothing. In fact, those who talk the most… you get the idea. Those who keep their mouth shut are the ones who’d have a lot to talk about!
”
Its all about being tactful. Women who try to be sneaky with it usually aren’t nearly as sneaky as they think they are. I’m sure this goes for most guys too.
Yes. lol. Though most men who really do get laid alot will lie to you and say much less than they really have had.
Of course! I totally understand them. No woman would want to be with a slutty guy who’s had sex with 10 women or more.
Its all about being tactful. Women who try to be sneaky with it usually aren’t nearly as sneaky as they think they are.
Why would anybody be sneaky?
“Why would anybody be sneaky?”
So not to wake the neighbors?
lol Now, seriously, I think the whole “game” and the rules are just pathetic. Ugly. And sad. I mean, it’s treating others like enemies while trying to be intimate with them. Isn’t that just…wrong?
“Game” is stupid and pathetic.
“Judging character” is smart. I think knowing how many guys a woman has slept with is a good indicator of character in relation to her compatibility with me in a long term relationship. Though it is not by any means the only thing to look at.
Mira,
I think i understand what you’re saying, but the selling and buying doesn’t really sound… right to me. These are intimate relationships we’re talking about. It’s not market. I don’t know.
I think I might have confused you by using a figure of speech… I wasn’t trying to actually talk about sex in market principles. I agree, that’s distasteful. The buying/selling line is more of an “Americanism.” The better way to say it would have been “I say it’s not so great if that woman believed what he was saying, only to find out that he was not being honest.
Hope that helps.
But, here’s the thing. To some women, myself included, finding a “Zek” among the crowd is the only way. Because some women (myself included) don’t want to be with a non-Zek kind of a guy. Not because we want to have sex on a first date; maybe we’ll wait (because we want to) , but we simply don’t want to be with a “caveman”. (= a guy with such views on sex).
I don’t want to be with a man who thinks women are sluts, even if he respects me. With a man who’d talk bad about a woman because she had sex on a third date or because her skirt is “too short”. I wouldn’t want such a man to raise my son or my daughter. I wouldn’t want such a man’s respect, because I don’t have respect for men who think and behave like that.
So yes, “Zeks” are rare, but for some women, finding one is very important.
Well, I think there are more choices out there than the Zeks and the Cavemen.
Honestly, I wouldn’t want a guy who expresses either way of thinking. I don’t want to be with a man who thinks women are sluts and I’ve said many times that I don’t believe in waiting for sex to earn a man’s respect. The “respect” of a stranger is not important to me… it’s irrelevant and he’s irrelevant until I decide to make him relevant!
At the same time, I don’t want a man, who, like Alee said, judges a woman for choosing to wait longer than he would like… and that is the impression I have from my own personal experiences with men who claimed to be very open-minded about sex, but they were very judgmental toward me because I would not have sex with them on the third date.
The man I chose to marry actually said he wanted to wait for a certain period to get to know me on a non-sexual level before we actually decided to have sex. I was not the one to bring up the topic first. This conversation happened because he lived four hours away from me and when he came up to visit for the first two months, he got a hotel each time. (He only visited every other week, so it was just four times.) He didn’t want to put me in a position where, by the end of the night, I would feel pressured to make a decision about where he should stay (on my couch or in my bed). So he did it on his own and said that he would like to keep sex out of the equation for that period of time. That made me a lot more comfortable… so then I could later be the one to tell him that he didn’t need to get a hotel anymore.
With him, there was no chance that he would be a Caveman and judge me for having sex too soon (or “respect” me for waiting), and he wouldn’t have Zek’s philosophy either in which I would feel judged for waiting “too long.”
This is the type of situation I think more women should be able to experience… one without judgment either way about the timing of sex and one in which she feels in control of her decision and empowered to do what’s best for her.
that guy,
It depends on what you mean by “character”. If you mean on “shows the way she approached sex, at least at one point in her life”, then yes. But if you mean on “it shows whether she’s a good person”, then no.
Same goes for men.
“It depends on what you mean by “character”. If you mean on “shows the way she approached sex, at least at one point in her life”, then yes. But if you mean on “it shows whether she’s a good person”, then no. ”
You can’t turn a bad girl good. And I mean character in relation to having longterm relationship, not being a good or bad person. I’m not trying to say in any way a woman who has sex with a bunch of guys is a bad person, not by any means.
Bunny,
I think I might have confused you by using a figure of speech…
Yes. But I get it now.
At the same time, I don’t want a man, who, like Alee said, judges a woman for choosing to wait longer than he would like…
Oh, I agree about that. When I said “zek”, I didn’t mean on our Zek as a full person (there are some things he says I don’t agree with). I named the “zek” type in a context you mentioned: a guy who’d honestly be interested in a relationship even if you had sex with him early on. A guy who wouldn’t disrespect you if you didn’t withhold sex.
and that is the impression I have from my own personal experiences with men who claimed to be very open-minded about sex, but they were very judgmental toward me because I would not have sex with them on the third date.
By all means, you’re right about those guys. A guy saying he’s “open-minded” about sex is a RED FLAG! For both the reasons you mentioned and some other ones.
The man I chose to marry actually said he wanted to wait for a certain period to get to know me on a non-sexual level before we actually decided to have sex.
That’s cute.
My husband told me I should feel no pressure about sex. And I know he meant that.
But I don’t think Zek (this time, actual Zek) is judging women if they wait too long. At least not judging in a way of thinking bad about their character. He just seems to think a girl isn’t interested in him.
That guy,
You can’t turn a bad girl good
What is a bad girl? A good girl?
And I mean character in relation to having longterm relationship, not being a good or bad person. I’m not trying to say in any way a woman who has sex with a bunch of guys is a bad person, not by any means.
So, for you, having 8 long term relationships (= having sex with 8 men) is better than having one one night stand (= having sex with 1 man). ? Or what?
Does this really matter? Do guys really care that much about the number of partners? No guy has ever asked me that, so that’s why it seems strange.
Oh, I agree about that. When I said “zek”, I didn’t mean on our Zek as a full person (there are some things he says I don’t agree with). I named the “zek” type in a context you mentioned: a guy who’d honestly be interested in a relationship even if you had sex with him early on. A guy who wouldn’t disrespect you if you didn’t withhold sex.
Okay, now I understand! And yes, that type of man would be wonderful!
I just think that women shouldn’t necessarily take their chances and hope that’s the type of guy they have if they really don’t know him. If they want to have sex very early with a man, that’s their decision, but I think women should at least be aware that there are a lot of “cavemen” out there… and I wouldn’t want women to keep having sex early on with new partners (and running into a lot of cavemen) if they want to have a more serious relationship.
That’s why Alee and I were saying that waiting for a little while can’t hurt and might be a good idea for women who want to see if the man is interested in her, or just interested in sex. (Again, this is only if she is potentially interested in an exclusive relationship.) It’s amazing how many men will stop calling after a sexless second or third date!
bad girl=girl who has sex with a bunch of guys
good girl=the opposite.
I can’t say I’m aware of a girl whos only had a one night stand once and no other sex, but yes, I would prefer a girl who’s mostly been in longterm committed relations than someone whos had meaningless sex with a bunch of people. And I think this applies to practically all guys.
Wow! The conversation certainly took off while I was at work! I’m glad everyone’s so moved to discuss this topic, and that Alee has consented to let bygones go back & forth among the clouds here. Makes me feel all cool and shtuffs ; )
There have been so many comments, I’ll just stick to the highlights.
Rob,
I’m sorry you disagree with my assessment, but PUA and “players” are a minority of guys. Tucker Max is NOT your average dude. And while *I* may not be your average dude either, it seems I’m a lot closer to the mean than wannabe hook-up artists. And an easy way to tell that is ask a sampling of guys in their twenties how many women they’ve been with, how many girlfriends, etc. The answers would surprise you, I imagine, much as they surprised me when I started asking those questions in my youngerer years.
But appealing to “biology” seems like another Just-So story since you didn’t really explain WHY or HOW biology creates the behaviors you stated exist as the dominant ones. And in this I agree with Mira, because culture is often JUST if not MORE important when it comes to social interaction. I mean, would you say polyandrous cultures are based in “biology”? Because they exist, and I’d be interested in hearing you explain them with that theory.
Bunny,
I’m sorry if my comment(s) came off dismissive or controlling of women’s sexuality. I just mean that it seems — to me — when I consider the number of vocally unhappy/unfulfilled women in America, it seems that they have to jump through so many hoops that (and this is probably my privilege talking) I’d just say F*ck It.
Anyhoo, whatever a person wants to do with regards to sex is fine with me. I just think that — and Mira touched on this — that using withholding to manipulate or control a guy in order to get a relationship is a Bad Thing. But at the same time I think if you want to wait, then good for you, I just personally think many women don’t do it for the right reasons in my personal opinion.
Mira,
I think you’ve got a good read on my opinions regarding this topic, probably because we have the same feelings regard sex/casual sex/whatever =) I agree with a lot of the points you’re making too, especially this comment But I don’t think Zek (this time, actual Zek) is judging women if they wait too long. At least not judging in a way of thinking bad about their character. He just seems to think a girl isn’t interested in him.
And I KNOW I’m not the only guy who makes this assumption. Which will does make an ass out of You and Umption, it is kinda hard not to see that from a male perspective.
Jasmin,
Your anecdote is very true, but a little misrepresented darling. I would *want* to punch him in the face because at the time you were (in the example) kissing him I’d be trying to get you to be my girlfriend. But if you had had sex with another guy BEFORE we ever got together, I wouldn’t mind because 1) I’ve done that, and 2) it would’ve happened before we got together so it would be unfair to hold it against you now.
Everyone,
I think maybe my comments got off point in this topic. I don’t advocate for casual sex unless you can handle that sort of thing. I think I’m personally a great example, and sometimes an advocate for people having sex ONLY when they’re comfortable doing so, and taking sex more seriously than people seem to do nowadays.
Shoot, my life story is (as Jasmin will happily point out) is one big piece of proof that casual anything can backfire pretty badly. And I’d agree. But the difference to me is that I wouldn’t change my behavior because I sincerely feel that it was those same feelings which led me astray also, eventually led me to Jasmin.
Obviously for others this won’t necessarily be the best way for things to go. But the basic premise of doing what you feel is right for you is pretty basic advice that I’d think we could all get behind.
Anyhoo, my overall point is NOT that people should have sex right away, but that physical intimacy is often viewed by men as the means and marker of emotional intimacy. A relationship doesn’t feel serious until or around the involvement of sex into the equation. And on this point, most guys would agree, except those few who view women as subhuman objects designed for their pleasure. (AKA PUA’s.)
Overall I’m glad everyone’s had such strong and amazingly well articulated reactions to the topic! I think this debate is actually an extremely great example of how differing people can discuss something so personal with respect, and at the same time still disagree.
Keep the comments floooooooowing! =)
Bunny,
If they want to have sex very early with a man, that’s their decision, but I think women should at least be aware that there are a lot of “cavemen” out there…
I think women do know there are a lot of cavemen. I’m just trying say you don’t have to settle for one if it’s something you detest.
I mean, there are many racists out there, too. But you don’t have to settle for one if it’s something you find highly disgusting.
Then again, we didn’t really define what “very early” means. It can mean a lot of things, and like I said (in my culture at least), you can have a seemingly good, exclusive relationship with a guy and still end up with a slut label (and him leaving you after sex) if it was “too early” according to him, or if you, God forbid, has been with more men than he “allows” a woman to have (which is 1 before him, 2 tops).
That’s why Alee and I were saying that waiting for a little while can’t hurt and might be a good idea for women who want to see if the man is interested in her, or just interested in sex. (Again, this is only if she is potentially interested in an exclusive relationship.)
I get this. But like I said, the rules might be a bit different in my culture. There’s no such a thin as a non-exclusive relationship, so maybe that makes the whole thing a bit different.
It’s amazing how many men will stop calling after a sexless second or third date!
Huh? I don’t know, that IS a “bit” early for me. (Unless in special circumstances, for example, the guy is your childhood friend you know your whole life). You do need some time to get to know the guy. But, at least in my case, you don’t need months and months and months to decide whether you want to have sex with him.
I don’t know, maybe I’m strange. I guess I always asked myself what I want first, and not so much what he wants or what must I do in order to secure a long term relationship (even though I never wanted to have a casual relationship), or what must I do for him to respect me. I can’t read people, though guys who divide women into “sluts” and “good girls” are usually very easy to recognize. They are quite proud of their views and make them known.
All in all, this whole post just makes me happy I don’t have to worry about dating, withholding sex and the “game” anymore. It’s so tiring and, in a way, makes me lose faith in human race.
That guy,
bad girl=girl who has sex with a bunch of guys
good girl=the opposite.
Why I’m not surprised? Now, what “bunch of guys” means?
I can’t say I’m aware of a girl whos only had a one night stand once and no other sex
There seems to be a lot of things you don’t know about women.
Admittedly, this situation doesn’t happen often, but it does happen sometimes. I know a few examples.
but yes, I would prefer a girl who’s mostly been in longterm committed relations than someone whos had meaningless sex with a bunch of people.
That’s not what I asked. A girl who’s had ONE one night stand has been with one man, not “a bunch of people”.
Now, I do admit that I wouldn’t want to be with a guy who’s been with “bunch of girls” and left them all the next morning, or with a PUA, or with a guy who doesn’t respect women. I sure prefer to be with someone who seems capable of having a long term relationship, if that’s what we’re talking about. But I’d never ignore a guy just because I dislike some of his sexual experiences. (Well, it depends, obviously. Some things I wouldn’t be able to tolerate). Or lack thereof: there are many guys who are so embarrassed of the low number of women they’ve been with.
Zek,
And an easy way to tell that is ask a sampling of guys in their twenties how many women they’ve been with, how many girlfriends, etc. The answers would surprise you, I imagine, much as they surprised me when I started asking those questions in my youngerer years.
Surprise me! How many?
I just mean that it seems — to me — when I consider the number of vocally unhappy/unfulfilled women in America, it seems that they have to jump through so many hoops that (and this is probably my privilege talking) I’d just say F*ck It.
Your privilege IS talking, but it’s not like you don’t have a point. Look, I don’t know about America, but like I said, the rules here are so twisted that it’s basically all down to what people THINK you’ve done, and not what really happened.
I repeat: there are VIRGINS who are slut-shamed. I’ve been there, and I’m not the only one. A girl who’s never kissed a guy in her life is slut shamed for wearing “provocative clothes”. I was slut shamed for talking about sex the way I do here. I got people, my whole class, surround me, asking questions such as: “what is like to have an abortion?”, or “do you like to be spanked on your head with a dick”. And I got random guys call me in the middle of the night (waking up my mother) to ask for “a date”. And I was not just a virgin, but completely inexperienced with dating (save for that one guy at the competition I talked about).
Ok, sure, the fact I was too proud to defend myself with the fact I was a virgin probably didn’t help, but this experience alone has taught me that people NEVER know this kind of stuff, and that they just like to be mean. Also, that you don’t have to do anything in order to suffer this kind of consequences.
So after all of this, I didn’t really care what people would say, because I knew they could say bad things regardless of what I, or anybody else, do. So when, after a difficult breakup and THREE YEARS of not dating anybody, (and the resulting depression and feeling extremely lonely) I’ve met a guy I liked, excuse me for not waiting for months to see if he’ll respect me after sex.
And I married him.
Also…
Zek,
I agree with a lot of the points you’re making too, especially this comment But I don’t think Zek (this time, actual Zek) is judging women if they wait too long. At least not judging in a way of thinking bad about their character. He just seems to think a girl isn’t interested in him.
And I KNOW I’m not the only guy who makes this assumption.
Ok, this IS the first time I hear about this. I’ve never thought about it, you know. Don’t guys UNDERSTAND why girls want to wait? Don’t you (= men) understand how vital it is for a woman to keep her reputation intact, and how important is for a woman not to be taken advantage of sexually? Imagine that there is a high probability of experiencing excruciating pain in your testicles for hours if you choose a wrong time, or a wrong person to have sex with… Don’t you think you’d be more careful about who (and when) you sleep with?
Shoot, my life story is (as Jasmin will happily point out) is one big piece of proof that casual anything can backfire pretty badly. And I’d agree. But the difference to me is that I wouldn’t change my behavior because I sincerely feel that it was those same feelings which led me astray also, eventually led me to Jasmin.
Well, call me cheesy, but I think staying true to yourself is often the right way, even if it’s the wrong one, and even if it’s not the smartest thing to do at the moment.
I know I didn’t want to settle with a “caveman”- I’ve learned it the hard way, but if I were any different, I wouldn’t met my husband.
Anyhoo, my overall point is NOT that people should have sex right away, but that physical intimacy is often viewed by men as the means and marker of emotional intimacy. A relationship doesn’t feel serious until or around the involvement of sex into the equation.
I agree about this. I know it works differently for many (female?) people, but I can’t really connect with a guy and truly fall in love without sex. To me, it’s an integral part of a relationship.
However, once again: don’t men understand that sex is usually NOT seen as a marker of emotional intimacy for women? Don’t you guys understand that the fact she doesn’t want to have sex with you actually mans she likes you A LOT and wants to be with you for a long time?
Ok, this is definitely not me. But most of the women are like that, as weird as it may sound.
Interesting comments…
Sherry,
“I think that if a woman is true to her nature and healthy emotionally, she will make good choices more often than not. Take all the time YOU need to, and tell everyone else to sityouassdown!”
Lol. Indeed.
“Now having said that, all of this “save it until the wedding night” is naive and ridiculous to me.’
I mean… that’s their choice. I’ve known people who’ve done this to no major ill effects. They said the learning process with their partners was great.
—
Rob,
“But I can’t find any evidence that the basic generalization [that males are more into casual sex than females] does not hold true. It pretty much occurs to me as basic biology …”
It doesn’t occur to me as basic biology at all. I don’t remember learning about this anywhere in any of my countless biology courses.
Then again, none of the schools I attended were particularly interested in bolstering the status quo via evolutionary
biobunk.—
Bunny,
“… I wonder how many of the men who encourage a more organic approach to sexuality for women will eventually advise their daughters in this manner?”
I’d be really interested in a response to this question! Like, very interested!
Zek,
I just personally think many women don’t do it for the right reasons in my personal opinion.
And I think just as many women have sex for the wrong reasons as well. I actually think more women are having sex for the wrong reasons instead of holding back for the wrong reasons. As Alee said, we’ve done a 180 in our culture where women who wait for longer than three dates face just as much demonization as women who don’t.
I get the impression that you think that a woman who at least appears to be behaving organically by having sex whenever she wants with whomever she wants is free from those historical and social boundaries that controlled women’s sexuality.
And, I would say that’s dead wrong. Let’s just say that I had 10 years of post-college dating in major cities before I got married and I saw, experienced and heard quite a bit… and the main thing that I noticed was that women who appeared to be embracing their sexuality and freedom to choose were actually just acting out of character for a lot of different reasons.
Many women said that although they enjoyed sex, they often had sex before they really wanted to because they “knew” that most men in their areas would not wait more than three dates… the supply for women was greater than the demand, so they wanted to stay in the supply, so to speak, by having sex by that magical third date mark so the man wouldn’t get bored with them and move on to another woman.
Now please tell me how this is a good thing for a woman? Women should be free to say YES to sex when they want and be free to say NO to sex when they want. And as far as I’m concerned, I think the bigger problem than women holding back is the fact that they feel societal pressure to say YES before they’re emotionally ready to do so.
This is not behaving organically or choosing to have sex when it feels right. Having sex for the wrong reasons is just as problematic as waiting for the wrong reasons, but you seem to continually gloss over that.
Let’s just say that I finally realized that I was behaving organically in terms of sex when I realized that it was equally empowering to say NO as it was to say YES. And when women don’t feel empowered to say NO, which I think is a growing problem that you aren’t recognizing, then women are just as controlled by male sexuality as they were when they were judged for not being virgins or for being “sluts.”
Perhaps they are also unfulfilled and unhappy because they are not having sex on their own terms, but by the terms of our “liberal” dating culture?
Mira,
I think women do know there are a lot of cavemen. I’m just trying say you don’t have to settle for one if it’s something you detest.
Of course! I just don’t want women to automatically believe a guy who appears to be “liberal,” but after sex, you find out he’s a caveman. It’s best to find out he’s a caveman before you actually have sex with him!
Huh? I don’t know, that IS a “bit” early for me. (Unless in special circumstances, for example, the guy is your childhood friend you know your whole life). You do need some time to get to know the guy. But, at least in my case, you don’t need months and months and months to decide whether you want to have sex with him.
Right, my definition of “early” is three dates or before, although I still think even the fourth date is early (for me) if I hadn’t known him before. Because I moved around so much in my 20s, most of the men I met were strangers. They weren’t childhood friends, college friends or anything like that. These were men I met on the Internet, at events, at bars/clubs/etc… that’s why I thought it was rather reckless for me to become intimate with such men on a second or third date. And very entitled of THEM to expect that I do so, when I didn’t know them at all barely two weeks ago!
If you think about it, if you meet on the Internet and go on three dates, maybe you spend 2-3 hours on each date. Honestly, unless I want to have casual sex and don’t care if I ever see the guy again after sex, I really shudder at the idea that sex is expected from a guy who I’ve only spent six hours of my life with!
I think the “right time” is different for everyone and yes, you might not need months and months to decide to have sex. Or maybe you have decided on Day 1 that you want to have sex, but you still wait for a few months because you would like to get to know him better… I think whatever is best for a woman to protect herself physically and emotionally, that’s what she should do. And like you said, the most important thing is asking yourself what you want, and then making a decision about sex based on that. Not what he wants!
Mira
There is plenty of information online about the evolution of human mating behavior …. nothing revolutionary about it … it’s actually the opposite. I spent about ten seconds searching the topic and found this …. there are thousands more links out there on this topic, most of which site various research journals, etc. So I think these will do a much better job summarizing my points above than I ever could.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/616691/analyzing_human_mating_behavior.html
Regarding reasons men seek out and hire prostitutes. From what I gather, for the most part many customers are above average in terms of wealth, looks, and social status and simply want a hassle free sexual experience with an attractive woman whom they do not know, and do not care to get to know. I believe the quote is “they are not paid to come over and have sex, they are paid to leave afterwards”. Don’t shoot the messenger please …. all I did was search Google for “why men see prostitutes” and such is what I found.
Zek
You mentioned polyandrous cultures … again I’m hardly any sort of anthropologist. From what I can gather, we’ve seen some examples of such cultures … again … far more the exception than any sort of ‘trend”, right? So pointing out an exception to a generalization doesn’t mean a whole lot to me …. point to TONS of exceptions, and you start to move the dial, as it were. Basically the world we live in came about because of the basic marital “bargain” that has gone down between men and women for the past gazillion years. It’s why we have the rituals in place that we have … it’s why my wife wore a white dress to get married in … and why everybody stood up when she walked down the aisle. To honor the ancient ritual we have built our world around. The Princess Fantasy is so strong, so universal, Disney built huge theme parks around it … and puts out feature length animated films every year that millions and millions of people watch and show their children …. showing young girls everywhere that their prince is waiting for them and fairy tales do indeed come true.
And it can happen to you to. It happens to everybody. OK, not every single person. Out of 100 people I went to high school with, maybe 90 of them eventually got married and living their personal version of the Disney fairy tale. Most of the women I grew up with ended up leaving the work force somewhere between 30 and 40 and choosing to be stay at home moms just like their mothers and their mothers before them. ((I’m 51 by the way). Raised by liberal parents in one of the most liberal states in the USA, and came of age in the most liberal city in that state (San Francisco). And still most of my friends ended up living the fairy tale brought to us by The Brothers Grimm, Walt Disney, and the collective unconsciousness of our society. So pointing out the one-off exception polyandrous society they found up in Tibet doesn’t really mean a whole lot to me … it’s curious that a group of people live in a world where women take multiple husbands … sure. But I guess if that model was a “working model” of how society could work, we would see lots of examples of that model thriving. And we don’t. Because the polyandrous model doesn’t seem to work, for whatever reasons. What seems to work is the basic Disney Princess Model, which is why we see it so very often, and why Disney continues to build theme parks
that guy,
“Robs entire viewpoint seems to be based on his finding on the internet instead of [actual] real life experience.”
I find it funny and timely when you state what everyone is thinking.
“I personally judge a woman more harshly on the amount of men shes had sex with in her life more than how long it took for her to have sex with me. I don’t think most American guys judge a woman as harshly on how quickly you have sex with them as alot of women think”
I think they do! Actually, I should say I know they do.
Mostly because those two are linked… Like I said, since a guy can never really be “sure”, many take the approach of using their own situation with a woman as a gauge. So they think, “If she jumped into bed this quickly with me, she’s probably done the same with other guys.”
“And if I don’t get a kiss on the first date, unless I know the woman is extremely conservative before hand, I will write her off instantly.”
Well, thank goodness you and zek are not the last men on earth. Because I rarely kiss a guy on a first date, unless I know him beforehand or I’m absolutely sure it will be something long-term. I mean, do you know how many microorganisms are inside the mouth? Eck. Not swapping those with some strange guy.
When you’ve seen a carpet full of bacteria grow on an agar plate in 24 hours from a fingerprint, you’ll think twice about mouth-kissing random people too. You can keep your own S. mutans.
that guy says:
“but if you give it up quickly there needs to be a very strong connection before the sex, or we will value you alot less.”
Mira says:
“This line implies you believe a woman has something to give, or to fight against “giving it up”. Which is, um… a bit sexist way to look at things?”
What?… He’s just being your average guy. “That guy” is an apt username, no?
Seriously, that guy’s comments, rather than rob’s or zek’s, are more in line with guys I’ve known. He’s not too liberal about it (at least when it comes to women…), but he’s not completely stuck in a traditional line of thinking.
Mira says:
“how would you know how many partners she’s had?”
that guy says:
“Usually by doubling the amount that she claims to have had sex with.”
Mira says:
“A good one! Does it work for men? (Divide the number he claims with two)?”
LMAO.
Well, this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of that strategy!
When it comes to women’s numbers, multiply by two. When it comes to men, divide by two. It sounds like BS to me (the number I give to men is my actual, real, true number), but I still wonder how well it works. Maybe I should start doing this with men I date?
that guy,
“You can’t turn a bad girl good.”
“…but once a good girl’s gone bad, she’s gone forever.”
“yes, I would prefer a girl who’s mostly been in longterm committed relations than someone whos had meaningless sex with a bunch of people. And I think this applies to practically all guys.”
I prefer men with a lower number, period. Zero is preferable. So, there!
Just a question to you girls who had sex with a guy after a few dates..
Ain’t you guys worried about STDs and stuff like that? I saw somewhere that 50% of black women in the states have genital herpes, they must be getting it from somewhere and if you look at my country the HIV rate in some areas are as high as 30%. Condoms breaks all the time, heck I’ve had quite a few of them break with hubby before I went on the pill.
Both me and my husband got tested for EVERYTHING before I had sex for the first time. I did not want to get a STD. I don’t think there’s anything ridiculous and silly for waiting for your first time to be on your wedding night even if I did not do it.
Bunny,
‘my definition of “early” is three dates or before’
Same. Actually, mine might be a few more dates…
I mean, three dates (or less)? Really? I don’t feel like I know a person at all after three dates.
“If you think about it… maybe you spend 2-3 hours on each date. Honestly, unless I want to have casual sex and don’t care if I ever see the guy again after sex, I really shudder at the idea that sex is expected from a guy who I’ve only spent six hours of my life with!”
Yes. I don’t think people really think about that. Even if you’ve spent 12 hours with someone, total, is that really a whole lot? You probably spend more hours a day on the internet than you do with someone on the first date…
And some people who feel they need to defend their choice of becoming intimate on the first/second date say, “We had a really greay connection”… but isn’t that what they all say? Just call it what it was — lust. Don’t try to make it seem like the person was special.
…when women don’t feel empowered to say NO, which I think is a growing problem that you aren’t recognizing, then women are just as controlled by male sexuality as they were when they were judged for not being virgins or for being “sluts.”
This.
very, very,very interesting…
Alee, you never took a course examining Human mating behavior from an evolutionary perspective? I think I heard you just dismiss hundreds of scholarly works on this topic as “bunk” . Is that really how such things occur to you? Can you at least spend ten minutes looking at the link I posted to Mira and point out where the bunk jumps out at you. It occurs to me as pretty compelling stuff actually and I’d be interested to hear your perspective.
Nkosazana,
“Just a question to you girls who had sex with a guy after a few dates..
Ain’t you guys worried about STDs and stuff like that?”
That’s a risk people take…
—
@Keia,
Isn’t it? These sort of discussions always are…
—
Rob,
“Alee, you never took a course examining Human mating behavior from an evolutionary perspective?’
You mean evolutionary biology? Yes, I have. Or do you mean animal behavior? I never opted to take that because it included a lot of psychology, which I’m not fond of as a formal study (and also tells me that its relation to bio isn’t too strong…).
‘I think I heard you just dismiss hundreds of scholarly works on this topic as “bunk” .’
Scholarly work?
…LOL.
“Can you at least spend ten minutes looking at the link I posted to Mira”
No.
Okay, okay. I… skimmed it.
See, the problem with that article is that a lot of it has its ultimate basis in psychology, which is of course not biology. There are few/no links to actual biological mechanisms. They are just saying, “Well, this likely takes place because of this which has its roots in this…”
And that’s well and good in and of itself, but until you find some origin in the brain/body you’re not providing a strong enough case. You’re merely saying what you think the likely cause of a certain behavior is, and since you have no observed biological mechanisms to back your theories, your response is just as good as any from anthropology or sociology.
Nkosazana,
Ain’t you guys worried about STDs and stuff like that? I saw somewhere that 50% of black women in the states have genital herpes, they must be getting it from somewhere and if you look at my country the HIV rate in some areas are as high as 30%. Condoms breaks all the time, heck I’ve had quite a few of them break with hubby before I went on the pill.
Exactly! I also wonder why this very legitimate concern is never broached in these “act organically” conversations about sex. Yes, I can say that every time I chose to become sexually intimate, I used some form of protection, but even then, I could still have been at risk for who knows what if a condom broke or if a new medication interfered with the effectiveness of the Pill.
It’s rather glib to just say, “Oh, there are contraceptives out there,” and suggest that’s the end of the discussion about outside concerns interfering with sex. But let’s be real… the USA has one of the highest unplanned pregnancy rates in the Western world, so everyone ain’t using all those contraceptives out there that are available for the taking… and after a few drinks, some of those sexually liberated women that you kind of admired will then tell you about some of their abortions… no judgment from me on abortion, but huh, guess what? Here’s the ugly underbelly of all this sexual freedom — lots of difficult situations that no one wants to face.
So if the unplanned pregnancy rate is high, it stands to reason that pregnancies aren’t the only things resulting from unbridled sexual freedom. And again, the infertility topic gets glossed over… while I know there’s still a lot of research to be done in this area, there do seem to be some conclusive links between scarring of various reproductive organs and HPV… so again, do I want to put at risk my plan of having children with my loving husband at age 33, for example, because I found some random guy hot at age 23 and decided to just throw caution to the wind? I don’t think so!
(But most people aren’t thinking that far ahead…)
**Correction on Zek’s anecdote (I told him this last night, so he won’t be surprised): his “punch him in the face” comment happened before we were dating (which I said upthread, I believe). So technically, I could’ve kissed another guy within the boundaries of “casual sex” (after all, we weren’t exclusive), and Z would’ve been angry about it, because said casual encounter wouldn’t be working out in his favor. As I told him yesterday, that’s just one example of how people’s “rules” for casual sex often don’t match up with their actual beliefs and actions.
Bunny,
(Again, Z and I talked about this last night.) Males don’t get it because they have the privilege to have things work out in the favor either way. If they have casual sex and it works out, they’re studs. If it doesn’t, the girls must have been sluts. I’ve seen girls try to turn it around when they got rejected (i.e., they said the guys they slept with were “man-whores” or “users”), and the only people who cared to listen were their friends. Certainly no guys went out of the way to shun each other–if anything they said the girl was “asking for it” (by virtue of being a slut) or that she should have “known better”.
Bunny,
“I also wonder why this very legitimate concern is never broached in these “act organically” conversations about sex.”
It’d be interesting if someone addressed this… zek?
Rob,
While I won’t refer to myself as any sort of anthropologist, I can use Google,
Well, there you go. You said it yourself. I don’t know why I bothered. (Hint: using Google is not “TEH” right way to do it. It doesn’t replace the actual, you know, study of biology or anthropology).
Bunny,
And I think just as many women have sex for the wrong reasons as well.
Don’t get me started on this. You’re right. And it’s not restricted to women. I think men, too, have sex for the wrong reasons.
In ideal world, a person should be free enough to say Yes and No whenever (s)he wants. But like I said, sadly, sex is not always about the two people and their intimacy… It’s often turned into public sphere, and it sucks.
That being said, I never received any message about saying “yes” being an empowering thing. It was always assumed that a girl wants to say no and all the advice I was given was that I have a right to say no whenever I want. Which was good, and I used that right whenever I felt like it. But I don’t like the idea they assume you don’t want to have sex.
On the other hand… Did I mention I don’t trust liberals? Sorry if this is offensive, but in my opinion, they often turned out to be full of prejudice.
Nkosazana,
Just a question to you girls who had sex with a guy after a few dates..
Ain’t you guys worried about STDs and stuff like that?
Well, I’ve never had sex with a guy after a few dates, but in my book, sex is about being mature and responsible to yourself and your body, as well as your partners.
As for the condoms… I don’t think they break as much as people claim. I mean, it NEVER happened to me (well, my partner), and I use them all the time. I was on a pill but had to stop because of health problems.
Testing and stuff is a must, too.
It’s just a part of being a responsible adult, I guess.
Bunny and Alee,
“I also wonder why this very legitimate concern is never broached in these “act organically” conversations about sex.”
I think it goes without saying, really, to be responsible. If you’re not, then well, you’re not mature enough to have sex, any form of it.
^I guess I meant why no one ever really, actually discusses the reality that you’re putting a lot of responsibility for your health/future into the hands of someone you really don’t know. That seems to be taken lightly in a, “Yeah, I know” kind of way, but it’s serious. You’re rolling the dice, and you might not get lucky. I’ve known people who definitely did not get lucky, and it wasn’t even a casual situation. Obviously many people don’t get lucky, given the STDs/unplanned pregnancy rate…
Stuff like this is not always puppies and rainbows, even when your partner doesn’t judge you either way for when you choose to become intimate.
Again, just hoping to provide a well-rounded picture.
Well, since we’re on the subject… in all of my experience I’ve never had a condom EVER break. Not once. Not even a little tear or scratch. Not even a miniscule thin spot. Iunno how they make ‘em in other countries, but here condoms have a 99% effectiveness rate, higher even than The Pill (98% for most brands, provided you take it right).
As for STD’s… that’s why you get regular check-ups. When I was single I went every 3 to 6 months to make sure I was clean. I mean, geebus, you must know some irresponsible people. Or maybe San Franciscans, having a thorough grounding in the history of AIDS (when it first came on the scene) take their sex-lives a little bit more responsibly.
“I also wonder why this very legitimate concern is never broached in these “act organically” conversations about sex.”
This is a legitimate concern, but I don’t see the connection you’re making. Sexual education & safety is something you learn in Health Ed classes in high school! Casual sex like I’m talking about tends to happen in college or later.
But I do think men should be, and are, concerned about pregnancy. Mostly because it’s a situation in which a man is basically helpless. No rights to any decision regarding the kid, and yet everyone will make him feel like crap if he decides he doesn’t want to be a parent. Or the reverse: he’ll feel like crap if he wants to keep it and she doesn’t. But I digress, reproductive rights for men is a whole other shebang.
Jasmin,
Yeah I would’ve been angry and upset about it because I was trying to date you seriously at the time! But that is far different from being angry or upset that you’d had casual sex before we even started talking.
I take your point about many men only being for casual sex when it works in their favor, but aren’t many women also for withholding sex because of the exact same reason? (As Bunny said.) And talking about this frames the whole social interaction as a power struggle, which sounds all very academic but isn’t really how normal people treat each other.
So I still don’t see the beliefs and actions not matching up. Can’t a person be upset at getting rejected even while they still enjoy casual sex? Or is that hypocritical to you?
However that’s still not my main point, which is not the ADVOCACY of casual sex, but the discussion of how males view sex as a means and marker to straight-up intimacy. (I think I’m starting to sound like a broken record, haha.)
Anyhoo, I think we’re getting far afield of what I think as the “meat” of my discussion which is how do as individuals and a society juggle the conflicting stereotypes about men and women while still being true to our own desires? How does a guy who wants to have sex with a girl, early on in getting to know her, balance his need for emotional closeness via physical closeness with her need to feel she’s not being used or that her sexual/personal needs are also being given due respect.
That, to me, is the real issue in my post. Conflicting styles but somehow they seem to work out — more or less — for men & women, yet the reasons How and Why are the curious things.
zek,
“I mean, geebus, you must know some irresponsible people.”
Are you talking to me? I know people of various backgrounds.
But no, I don’t know many zeks.“As for STD’s… that’s why you get regular check-ups. When I was single I went every 3 to 6 months…Sexual education & safety is something you learn in Health Ed classes in high school!”
Which apparently you failed?
You think that if you had caught an STD, it wouldn’t have caused damage before several months?
“Casual sex like I’m talking about tends to happen in college or later.”
Plenty of casual sex happens before college or later. Plenty…
“How does a guy who wants to have sex with a girl, early on in getting to know her, balance his need for emotional closeness via physical closeness with her need to feel she’s not being used or that her sexual/personal needs are also being given due respect.”
He needs to find a way to reassure her. But mostly, he can’t.
I understand you, but I don’t think a familiar person is “safer” per se. I mean, you never know. I’m sure not Thad’s N01 fan, but he had a point when he talked about married women and STDs. They were virgins on their wedding night, and they got it because the husband was cheating. Things like that DO happen. And it’s not just a rare thing.
I mean, in a way, you don’t trust anybody in this sense. YOU must be responsible. Get tested, get him tested. Use a condom, for heaven’s sake! I don’t know what people have against condoms; to me, it was no glove, no love, and I never had a negative experience with condoms. Don’t have sex with a guy if the idea of being impregnated by him seems too scary/disgusting to you.
I mean, don’t these things go without saying?
Mira,
‘I don’t think a familiar person is “safer” per se.’
They’re more likely to be safer, for many reasons. But that’s why I added “and it wasn’t even a casual situation”, i.e. the people were familiar with each other.
“YOU must be responsible. Get tested, get him tested.”
But the latter is not really possible in many casual encounters.
“I mean, don’t these things go without saying?”
You’d think so, but clearly not.
Zek,
How does a guy who wants to have sex with a girl, early on in getting to know her, balance his need for emotional closeness via physical closeness with her need to feel she’s not being used or that her sexual/personal needs are also being given due respect.
And once again, this is where I kind of chuckle… same with what “that guy” said about needing to know if a girl is interested by having some sort of physical action from a woman on the first date.
I like talking to older people. By older, I mean, over 60. Some couples are still together, some aren’t. But there’s frequently a common theme in the story of how they got married… the man was very attracted and many times, the woman barely knew he existed. Or didn’t want to know.
I’ve heard stories of men who went to the same restaurant every week because the waitress they liked worked there, and that was the only way they could try to get to know her. Or the boy who tried to sit by the girl he liked in church every week. Or the one who offered to carry his favorite girl’s books in the hallway whenever they were going to the same classes. Or the guy who went to the store where the girl work to make up things he needed to buy.
The women gave off ZERO signals that they were even interested in these men, but the men kept at it. And sex at this juncture? Ha, get real. They would have been THRILLED to get a mere kiss on the cheek from the women they desired.
Meanwhile, these are the typically the stories behind the people celebrating their 50th and 60th wedding anniversaries today.
Now, I realize that things were different “back then” in the sense that most women eventually needed to get married ASAP or they’d be “old maids” with no support, so they probably broke down more easily and married the pesky guy because he seemed nice enough. I obviously don’t advocate this tactic today for a particular man!
But the point of my story is that it seems ridiculously laughable for today’s more “evolved” man to act as if he’s going through great agony because he can’t have sex with a woman that he likes within a short period of time or if he doesn’t get a kiss on the first date, he’s completely out of sorts. I mean really, what are y’all? Animals? Seriously, have humans lost the characteristics that separate us from the animal kingdom when it comes to relationships and become little more than dogs ready to hump in the street?
The finer points of communication, flirting, courtship, mental stimulation, etc., between a man and a woman have been replaced by men wanting women to act as if they’re in heat and then the humping can commence… the more this conversation continues, the more I notice the extreme contradiction between the idea being put forth that having sex “whenever” is very liberal and progressive, but yet, the almost fanatical need these men have for immediate sexual and physical contact in order to build a relationship with a woman comes off as ridiculously base and animalistic.
And… entitled…
As far as I’m concerned, it’s just another form of the caveman mentality — just with a liberal twist that makes it sound “progressive” and “enlightened.”
P.S. Genital herpes and HPV can still be transmitted regardless of how faithful you are with condom use. Condoms don’t cover everything… and I bet most people have never even heard of molluscum contagiosum… which condoms also do not fully protect you from…
And we also didn’t bring up the fact that you might not have any idea if the dude you just decided to sleep with because things are going well and he needs that emotional closeness had sex two days later with another woman who’s also getting to know him and trying to fill his need for emotional closeness… so maybe he was fine with you two days ago, and now he has something… and then comes back to you.
Yes, the evil underbelly of the casual sex/hooking up world… and yet, women should just go with their feelings and have sex when they feel right about it… yeah…
(Still wondering who’s going to advise their daughters this way!
)
Bunny,
That is always a concern. Even in marriage. Marriage doesn’t protect you from STDs. At the end of the day, it’s all down to trust, and sadly, sometimes we choose the wrong people to trust to.
I mean, I’ve been in a long term relationship that was exclusive and all (or so I thought). We were together for a year and a half. And then i found out he was cheating on me. He said he never had sex with this other girl, but how to trust someone in this situation? How to trust someone ever again after something like this? And it wasn’t a casual sex situation. Similarly, there are many married women who encounter this kind of a problem. (And not just women- women cheat, too- we all know that there are many men who are unaware that they aren’t biological fathers of the children they raise).
What I’m saying is, of course people who involve in one night stands and casual sex are at a higher risk, and therefore must be extra cautious and responsible (which many of those who do involve in one night stands aren’t, but that’s another story). But a long term relationship or marriage can’t protect you from it per se.
It’s, basically, all down to choosing the right person.
Alee,
I wasn’t talking about you specifically actually… But nah, I did just fine in my Health Ed classes. And I even took Sex Ed in college, just for kicks. I know how most STDs work, so I know what symptoms to look out for.
However, I guess lots of people don’t? Can’t say that I’ve met many of them though post-college. Maybe in high school… and yes, they do have plenty of casual sex there too, but not as much as we do after high school.
Either way, safe sex is pretty easy if you learn what you’re doing beforehand. I’d compare it to driving — minimal risk if you take precautions and know how it works. Though, there will admittedly always be a risk…
He needs to find a way to reassure her. But mostly, he can’t.
See that to me is kind of a copout, lazy answer. Because why should she be the only one getting reassured? Also, just saying there’s nothing to be done isn’t really addressing the issue. And since successful couples do exist, it seems like there’s at least SOMEBODY out there who found that happy balance, or was able to reassure their partner, met their needs.
Bunny,
Yes, the evil underbelly of the casual sex/hooking up world… and yet, women should just go with their feelings and have sex when they feel right about it… yeah…
Haha, a little dramatic I think ; )
There are no guarantees in ANYTHING as far as I know, but that hasn’t stopped us from living our lives I notice. Minimize your risk, okay. But I think your humor is pointing in the direction of condemnation for people who are, as you like to call it, more “liberal”, which is exactly what you were chastising me for earlier in this conversation as I recall…
But anyhoo, with regards to STD’s that why you get the tests and check yourself, and who you have sex with. Notice I never said hook-up with somebody at random, but have sex if you want to. Also, molluscum contagiosum DOES go away in nine months, two years tops. I’d be more worried about warts, or herpes, something which stays around and is incurable. But then again, this does bring to my mind the topic of stigma that people face who have an STD (like herpes, not HIV/AIDS). Maybe for another post though.
Well, yes, obviously, “having sex when you want to” doesn’t mean “having sex with random people”, or “having sex with many people”, or “having sex on a first date”. I am not sure why it’s taken this way.
As for reassurance, eh. I am not sure if I’m into it. I mean, I’ve seen many “good girls” (= girls who played everything by the book) being mistreated, taken advantage of, and left disappointed and sad. So no, playing it safe does not guarantee anything.
Plus, the reassurance thing seems like transferring all the power to men, and we wouldn’t want that to happen, right
What I’m saying is, it makes everything about him, once again: if HE can prove he respects me, it will be fine. I need a reassurance.
I am sure this thing wasn’t mean to be taken this way, but I think it has a potential to turn into what I’ve just described.
It takes, once again, the power and control from women. Because, and I hope we all agree, the choice to have or not to have sex should be a woman’s personal choice, something that she makes FOR HERSELF. NOT in relation to what the guy thinks or might think, or will he respect me in the morning, or will he leave me if I don’t sleep with him. In either case, a woman is putting the control into a man’s hands. So it’s not about the choice she makes for herself anymore, but about the guy.
Are you regretting your “hooking up years” Bunny?
Could have ended very badly..
Still wondering who’s going to advise their daughters this way!
Not me. I’ll have my daughter when she’s 15 and we’re in South Africa for the summers volunteering in the a hospitals aids ward, I think hundred of people dying should be enough to keep her legs close until she’s married or at least use protection and be very careful like I was and it’s a way for me to keep her from getting too spoiled. Ah it’s a long time until then
—-
Mira,
Oh I’m well aware that women cheats, I had a cousin not to long ago that cheated with over 10 men and that is in a country with the aids rate that we got. And her family wasn’t happy to pay back the Lobola (bride price) for her. People have frozen her out To bad for the husband, he is a very lovely man.
we all know that there are many men who are unaware that they aren’t biological fathers of the children they raise.
Yes very cruel women that is. I heard that figures in the 20% ain’t the real father. If I were a man and had ANY doubts, I would take one of those discrete parental tests.
Heck in the states you’re still have to pay child support even if it’s not your child.
As for raising my daughter AND my son, I’d sure try to make them less naive than I was and more aware of what people are. In regards to sex, I think I essentially have two major tasks: 1) Make them be responsible and mature and USE PROTECTION at all costs, and 2) Make them have sexual integrity and do what they feel is the right thing, and not what society tells them to. To learn them to know how to say no, and how to say yes.
Personally, I’d think i failed as a parent if I hear my son talking about a girl he’s had sex with as a slut, or if I hear my daughter wanted to have sex in order for a guy not to leave her / or not to have sex in order for a guy to respect her.
Heck in the states you’re still have to pay child support even if it’s not your child.
Huh? You mean, if you adopt it, accept it as your own, or in any case? Why?
“I prefer men with a lower number, period. Zero is preferable. So, there! ”
@ alee
If I were to get married today, I would want the same for my wife. Zero is such a perfect number. And I know alot of guys do judge a woman on how quickly they have sex, but if its after a week and a strong connection has been built, usually not that harshly. Some women try to make a man wait 3, 4 weeks, and thats just not necessary most of the time. Sure its fine if thats how long it takes you to be comfortable, but honestly for most men you’ve already scored your points by not having sex after the second date.
“There seems to be a lot of things you don’t know about women.
Admittedly, this situation doesn’t happen often, but it does happen sometimes. I know a few examples. ”
Yup, I’m not claiming to be an expert, just giving my viewpoint and sharing my experiences. And in my experience, if a girl has only had sex once on a one night stand, the amount of time before she has sex with someone else whether its another one night stand or a relationship is usually pretty minimal. At least if she’s attractive and has guys chasing her, that is.
The scenario your proposing to me is so impossibly unlikely to ever happen I’m not sure I can give an honest answer to it.
So many comments! I’ll only give my two cents on a few things.
Sex ed in most places is laughable. I took sex ed for the first time in 5th grade, and from then on 1) it wasn’t really that specific (it’s not like every STD was even covered; the two big “scary” consequences were pregnancy and HIV), 2) many people teaching sex ed aren’t really super-qualified (we separated into same-sex groups and watched a video with another 5th grade teacher), and 3) sex ed is so far removed from the real-life experience of having sex. I’m sure there are boundary issues with adults talking to kids about sexual encounters, and that makes it near-impossible to say, “Well, what would you do if X happened?” So even with great sex ed programs (I’m sure they’re out there, somewhere), most people are just playing by the, “Well, I hope it won’t happen to me.” rule. And for a lot of people, “it” (meaning pregnancy, HIV, or an STD, the 3 biggies) doesn’t. But that doesn’t mean they were never at a significant risk of it happening, and that doesn’t mean that it never will if they keep with their current practices.
Interesting anecdote: I once knew a guy who really trusted in birth control pills, because he didn’t like condoms. (I believe the conversation started out with him talking about how he hadn’t had much sex using a condom and me asking how that was possible.) So I asked him how he knew the girls he slept with were on birth control. He said he watched them take their pills (which I think was a half-truth, but I digress). So I said, “Well you have to take the pill at the same time everyday for it to be effective, so you watching them take one pill in front of you one time is pretty pointless.” (There were other holes in this pill argument, but I think you see where I’m going.) Now, this guy has never gotten a girl pregnant (to his knowledge), but was his “strategy” a very smart one? Nope. He just got lucky, but I bet that if he had gotten a girl pregnant he wouldn’t have chalked it up to his miscalculation of the risks of having sex with someone who “says she’s on the Pill”, but he would’ve blamed it on her for not taking the Pill right (or something, this brings us right back to the fact that he had no way of knowing whether she was even on the Pill at all, and taking her word for it was naive, at best). So when things fall apart with this whole casual sex thing, who is to blame? The person who lied/embellished/omitted, as people are wont to do, or the person who fell for it/was ignorant of the risks/wasn’t as savvy about checking out their partner as s/he thought?
That guy,
And I know alot of guys do judge a woman on how quickly they have sex, but if its after a week and a strong connection has been built, usually not that harshly.
Not where I live!
Having sex on a first date = having sex after a week = having sex after a few weeks = SLUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The scenario your proposing to me is so impossibly unlikely to ever happen I’m not sure I can give an honest answer to it.
Do you listen to me? I KNOW girls who did it (or something close to it- losing a virginity after a week of a relationship).
Huh? You mean, if you adopt it, accept it as your own, or in any case? Why?
If for example some American girl cheats on her husband and gets pregnant and the husband is unaware that it’s not his. But a year or so later he gets a hit and does a DNA test. And he divorces her but he will still have to pay child support for a child that is not his.
“Not where I live!
Having sex on a first date = having sex after a week = having sex after a few weeks = SLUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ”
I live in America. Here girls will have sex with you withing 3 hours of meeting you with no alcohol involved. Because their empowered. Yay for feminism. Sluts here set the bar so low that a girl who doesn’t have sex after the second date must either be an angel or just isn’t into you at all. No third option.
lurker here, that vid made alot of sense.
Oh wait, there is a third option. Shes on her period. Its always funny when a girl interrupts a date before I’ve even invited her over to say “Just so you know, were not having sex tonight, I’m on my period.”
Smart girl, I might have otherwise thought she wasn’t into me.
“If for example some American girl cheats on her husband and gets pregnant and the husband is unaware that it’s not his. But a year or so later he gets a hit and does a DNA test. And he divorces her but he will still have to pay child support for a child that is not his.”
This isn’t even that uncommon. Or if she starts cheating on you, you divorce her, you will still have to pay her alimony. And she will probably get half of your money. Unless if you videotaped her cheating on you, which if you did, your probably going to jail for spying anyway haha. Hence why guys are terrified of marriage.
Its actually great to date a woman making more than you, that eliminates alot of these fears. Though as much as I like the fact that my girlfriend when she graduates will make more than me, I despise the fact that I will make less than her, if that makes any sense.
That guy,
I live in America.
I get that. That’s why I mentioned it. I think we’re dealing with some cultural differences here.
Here girls will have sex with you withing 3 hours of meeting you with no alcohol involved. Because their empowered. Yay for feminism.
Should I encourage my male friends to visit America?
Oh, wait… They can’t afford it. Too bad for them.
A girl who doesn’t have sex after the second date must either be an angel or just isn’t into you at all. No third option.
So, basically, all you need to do in order to keep your reputation is to wait 2-3 weeks (and more than 3 dates) to have sex? Oh, that’s manageable.
I mean, I guess it’s just me, but I don’t think I could have sex with a guy I’ve just met. I do need a few weeks.
Nkosazana,
And he divorces her but he will still have to pay child support for a child that is not his.
But that doesn’t make sense. Unless the guy loves the child regardless of DNA test (which is understandable in a way; imagine raising a child for 12 years only to discover it’s not your biological child. But does it even matter? In IS your child, and you are his father. Father is the one who raises the child, not the sperm donor).
But to expect someone to support the child that wasn’t his… It makes no sense.
That guy,
And she will probably get half of your money.
So, in America, it is assumed that the wife doesn’t work? Not fair.
Though as much as I like the fact that my girlfriend when she graduates will make more than me, I despise the fact that I will make less than her, if that makes any sense.
Many men feel that way, but it’s sexist. I mean, you should be happy she’s more than capable of taking care for herself and for being smart and educated. Plus, it’s always better for a woman not to depend on a man financially.
Woman: Why don’t you proclaim your love to me for the rest of your life and if I get bored of you I get half of your money and/or you will have to pay me every month indefinitely
Man: Yes I love you, but half of everything I own seems a little much, maybe we can agree to do 20 or 30 percent if we don’t work out?
Woman: Oh my god, your so unromantic, why can’t you just agree to love me for me and not negotiate this?
Man: . . . . .
How ’bout this:
Woman: I will work to support myself and have my own career.
Man: Fine. So if it doesn’t work out, you don’t get my money.
Woman: And you don’t get mine.
Man: Fine. Now, make me a sandwich.
Woman: Sure. I’ll do that while you clean up the house.
And everybody’s happy 
…or how about this scenario, that guy……….
Man: Since I’m so shallow and value looks above character, if this relationship doesn’t work out, I’ll pay you half. It’s only fair.
Woman: Great!. I did get my boobs enlarged, my face botoxed, my lips plumped and my butt pumped all at this tender age of 18yrs, so that I can attract such a
man as yourself…..
Only shallow women marry shallow men.
that guy,
Only shallow women marry shallow men.
I beg to differ. Many a nonshallow woman has married a shallow-as-hell man, although I believe she was, as they say, “hoodwinked”. Besides, I’m sure you’d agree that the logical corollary to your argument, that only shallow men marry shallow women, is OBVIOUSLY not true. So, therefore, you are wrong sir ; )
Mira,
Can we continue the call and response between man and woman? It’s cracking me up!
foosrock!,
The point that guy is making is actually not uncommon, and is a leading cause of MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way). Many men ARE afraid of being used, and abused by the system that can, in many instances favor women exclusively over men, even when it’s statistically unlikely that it’ll happen to them. But YOUR point is also well-taken: if guys want to avoid gold-digging drama-queen hoes with no morals and lawyers on retainer, then we need to be as careful as the women here are, apparently, with who they choose to date.
Anyhoo, I wanted to point out the funny part of the conversation regarding someone having ZERO partners prior to meeting you. The funny part is that people also tend to value sexual skill (for lack of a better term) and yet that skill only comes, generally, with experience. So if your SO has had ZERO experience before you, would it bother you if he/she was terrible in the bedroom? Would you be willing to put in the effort to make the sex-life pop-a-locking? ; )
On the other hand (besides different fingers) the whole shebang about women being so loose and just basically big sluts with no standards seems kinda like sour-grapes to me. Don’t we men often act, and encourage each other to act the exact same way? It seems downright disingenuous to suggest, as that guy seems to be doing, that women (perhaps specifically American women?) are somehow less than simply because they’ve taken on the sexual promiscuity of men. And I say this even considering many women may actually not enjoy it.
But that aside, most card-carrying Feminists that I know are actually MORE LIKELY to make a guy wait, then girls who just know about Feminism from a college course in Women’s Studies. And this is in hippy liberal San Francisco! So go figure.
One last thing! Rob,
I’m curious to know if you understand the concept that while Western Civilization’s norms and modes are the dominant way of doing things, that doesn’t mean they are the “natural” or “biological” way of doing things. Just because many cultures with different sexual norms are not as populous or powerful as ours does not mean they are any less “natural” or “biological”. But in fact, none of our sexual cultures are “natural” or “biological”, they are constructed over time and that is why there’s so many different types of marriage, kinship, sexualities, etc…
I think your main problem was that you confused hegemony with natural. Hegemonic systems are not “natural”, they are made and repeated by the people who are in control.
Also, if male promiscuity is “natural” and female chastity is “natural”, then why do we attempt to regulate this natural tendency, instead of, as is the case with all other human characteristics (violence, greed, etc.) attempt to create systems which would support it?
Zek,
That was the only conversation I wanted to share… Do you know some good ones?
I wanted to point out the funny part of the conversation regarding someone having ZERO partners prior to meeting you.
Oh, I think it’s great. Virgin guy = disease free. Snatching those guys might be a perfect strategy for one night stands!
(joke, joke!)
The funny part is that people also tend to value sexual skill (for lack of a better term) and yet that skill only comes, generally, with experience. So if your SO has had ZERO experience before you, would it bother you if he/she was terrible in the bedroom? Would you be willing to put in the effort to make the sex-life pop-a-locking?
I hear you, but no, it’s not that important to me. There’s nothing wrong with virgin guys, seriously. Though both people being virgins is a potentially tricky situation, but it can also be nice.
Unfortunately, experience (= someone who isn’t a virgin) does not mean the guy is a good lover. It simply doesn’t work that way.
Plus, I believe that your first time with someone new is NEW. You don’t know that person, and it takes time to learn how to please him/her. And there’s nothing wrong about that (it’s actually cute, those bonding moments). That’s why I believe that someone who’s had sex with one person 100 times is more experienced that the one who’s been with 100 people one time.
On the other hand, I am glad that my husband wasn’t a virgin (and that I wasn’t a virgin) when we met.
I’m curious to know if you understand the concept that while Western Civilization’s norms and modes are the dominant way of doing things, that doesn’t mean they are the “natural” or “biological” way of doing things. Just because many cultures with different sexual norms are not as populous or powerful as ours does not mean they are any less “natural” or “biological”.
Good point. I’d like to mention Ancient Greece, where people believed that WOMEN had stronger sexual urges than men. Female sexual urge was so strong that it was uncontrollable and thus prevented any logical thinking. Unlike men, women were unable to control those urges and their sexuality.
It’s interesting to note how these strong urges were used in a man-dominated society: this “uncontrollable sexuality” was one of the reasons why women were kept locked inside houses. I mean, imagine a woman going out freely, and doing all the foolish stuff… No, no, we better stop that. Marry her at the age of 15 and lock her inside the house. (But make sure to have sex with her on regular basis!!!!)
Granted, Ancient Greece was NOT a western civilization. Still, it’s worth mentioning this fact.
PS- I’m still waiting for that info on the number of partners of your average American 20 something guy. Is it a secret?
Z,
Well, you’re just going to have to explain why Cali has one of the highest STD rates in the country… if you all are so great at protecting yourselves and noticing early symptoms.
“See that to me is kind of a copout, lazy answer. Because why should she be the only one getting reassured? Also, just saying there’s nothing to be done isn’t really addressing the issue.”
One thing you have to know about me — I always fully explain. If the answer seems short, that just means it didn’t take as many words to fully explain.
But the reality is that, in any situation in life, the person who wants it more is the one who will have to make the adjustments. Why do women twist and turn to get men to marry them? If you want it more, you put yourself in a position where you’re going to be the one working on the other person’s schedule. It might not be fair, but maybe you’ll just have to stop wanting so much.
“And since successful couples do exist, it seems like there’s at least SOMEBODY out there who found that happy balance, or was able to reassure their partner, met their needs.”
Right. I didn’t mean “they can’t” as in they just wait to infinity. But many of these couples do have to work to effect a comprise which mostly involves waiting for one person to become more comfortable.
that guy,
“If I were to get married today, I would want the same for my wife. Zero is such a perfect number.”
I was kind of joking.
But I really would not have a problem at all if my SO had zero partners (I just know it’s unlikely… they’ll more than likely have at least a couple.). I’m not concerned at all with “sexual skill”; we have a whole lifetime to figure things out.
And that guy… what sort of women are you hanging around with? After 3 hours? That’s a little quick. And TMI about the period thing — you get around…
P.S. What did I tell you about the Mavericks?
While everyone was sweating the Heat (pun not intended), I called the Mavs as the winners, early on. Those shots were going to start falling sooner or later… and they just fell, right on top of BronBron’s dream of a championship.
Sandy,
Thanks for your response via video. LOL.
—
Hi earthichick,
How are you? Welcome.
I’m watching that video now… interesting viewpoint. I’ve heard it before, and yes the reasoning does align with my experience.
—
foosrock,
“Man: Since I’m so shallow and value looks above character, if this relationship doesn’t work out, I’ll pay you half. It’s only fair.
Woman: Great!. I did get my boobs enlarged, my face botoxed, my lips plumped and my butt pumped all at this tender age of 18yrs, so that I can attract such a man as yourself…”
*DEAD*
Very very good article into the psyche of the incredible male species. I do hope it has cleared up a lot for many young women who constantly judge a man on “female values”. Doesn’t, (won’t ever) work.
Sure, there are men who can just have sex with a stranger (and I’m sure we’ve all met them). But believe me, even if you just walked up to a guy, leaned in close, and whispered in his ear, “Wanna have sex?” you’d still need to have a conversation before he’d believe you and feel comfortable enough to get crack-a-lacking.
Very very true. I’ve even tested this and instead, it “deflated” the guys(2 of them)immediately. Perhaps it was performance angst though?.
Zek
Welp, I will say that in my past dating days, I used to gravitate to “liberal” guys because they typically presented — at least on the surface — a pleasant alternative to the the Madonna/Whore types (not that they ever got the time of day from me though). They actually sounded a lot like you!
But then, I noticed a nasty little trait that all of the liberal guys seemed to share… they were just as hypocritical and just as judgmental and just as closed-minded about women’s choices as the “that guys” of the world. Except the judgment came when a woman waited “too long” (which usually meant past two dates) versus not waiting “long enough.” And yes, those “liberals” never hesitated to then use their “liberal” thinking to tell such women (like me) who were waiting for more than two weeks/three weeks/two dates/three dates how close-minded, prudish, retroactive, game-playing, old-fashioned we were and how we would be soooo much happier if we stopped “restricting” ourselves.
Hmmm, it might have been easier for them to just move on and find a woman who would free them from that oppressive month-long wait for sex, rather than berate me because I wasn’t going to be the one to do that!
Also, molluscum contagiosum DOES go away in nine months, two years tops.
Funny, the guy I knew who had this didn’t seem to have your rather optimistic viewpoint about it when his sex life was derailed for at least nine months! You might have gotten a nice punch in the kisser if you had been this glib around someone who actually had that STD and had to deal with it… but I guess we still have to dismiss talk of real life consequences of casual sex because they don’t fit in your neat and tidy estimation of people should just go with their feelings when they decide to have sex, right?
Nkosazana
Are you regretting your “hooking up years” Bunny?
Could have ended very badly..
You know, the funny thing is that when my close friends have actually asked for details, they get a little disappointed because they thought that period was much juicier than it actually was. LOL One friend was like, “Oh, that’s it in four years? I know people who’ve done more than that in 3-6 months!”
That being said, even being more careful and selective than others might have been, there could have been some bad results. No STDs and no pregnancies, but I was also pretty fanatical about protection. But the guys? Well, let’s just say that if I had been lax about protection, that wouldn’t have stopped them. And that’s what’s scary about it all… and again, you have no idea if the person you do decide to sleep with because you’ve been hanging out with him for a minute and are starting to get interested was with someone else just last night. Or will be with someone else tomorrow and then with you later in the week.
And that’s not even cheating really… at least by American standards (just throwing this in for Mira’s sake), if he never brought up the fact that you were exclusive, then there is no understood idea that you’re only having sex with each other.
(I do know people can still have sex with others despite saying they’re “exclusive,” but at least in that case, a real boundary line is drawn. Not so with casual sex.)
On a general note, I know I’m beating Zek up a lot here, but I actually didn’t have much of a problem with his original post. It was his opinion and he has every right to that!
It’s more of the talk in the comment section that makes me scratch my head…
Alee,
Well, you’re just going to have to explain why Cali has one of the highest STD rates in the country
Do you have a link for that statement? Because I was under the impression Louisiana and Mississippi were worse… In fact, on the sites I’ve looked California barely comes up in everything EXCEPT (and this is a notable exception) in HIV/AIDS.
But the reality is that, in any situation in life, the person who wants it more is the one who will have to make the adjustments. Why do women twist and turn to get men to marry them? If you want it more, you put yourself in a position where you’re going to be the one working on the other person’s schedule. It might not be fair, but maybe you’ll just have to stop wanting so much.
Fair enough. I can see that being how a person would react. But that didn’t exactly answer my question(s).
Bunny,
Well, then I’d have to agree with Nkosazana’s assessment:
Are you regretting your “hooking up years” Bunny?
Could have ended very badly..
Sounds like you regret dating, and possibly even hold some resentment or bitterness towards these “liberal” guys who treated you so poorly. That’s understandable. But it doesn’t explain, or answer my question which is why you suddenly seem condemnatory about so-called “liberal” sexual choices after we had the discussion where you asked me not to be judgmental about so-called “conservative” sexual choices. Nor does it answer or explain how asking someone to have sex when they want to was perceived as “having sex randomly”, or “have sex right away”, or even “casual sex is the way to go”. All of those seemed to be the sentiments you ascribed to my position here in the comment section, even though I never advocated for any of them.
I guess we still have to dismiss talk of real life consequences of casual sex because they don’t fit in your neat and tidy estimation of people should just go with their feelings when they decide to have sex, right?
I don’t think we need to dismiss anything. But you DO seem to be doing just that when you dismiss the idea that sex can be undertaken with safety and responsibility, even by people who are doing it casually. Or that people who have sex when they want to are naive, not being safe, or not doing things in their “favor”.
On a general note, I know I’m beating Zek up a lot here,
Getting self-righteous about my opinions regarding safe sex, or berating me because you lump me in with the “liberal” guys you so dislike from your past IS dismissive — and strange. Why not just agree to disagree? I apologize if you feel attacked or insulted, because neither of those were my intentions. And as I understand it, I’ve been very clear in my comments. (If I haven’t, again I can only apologize that you misunderstood.)
Anyhoo, I’m glad foosrock! enjoyed things =)
wow where was I during all this?
The convo seems to have died down, but I will say I am SOOOO appreciative of Bunny77 comments and opinions. You have pretty well articulated my viewpoints on one night stands and how women have more to lose than gain from them (especially if they are looking to be in long-term relationships).
“But then, I noticed a nasty little trait that all of the liberal guys seemed to share… they were just as hypocritical and just as judgmental and just as closed-minded about women’s choices as the “that guys” of the world. Except the judgment came when a woman waited “too long” (which usually meant past two dates) versus not waiting “long enough.” And yes, those “liberals” never hesitated to then use their “liberal” thinking to tell such women (like me) who were waiting for more than two weeks/three weeks/two dates/three dates how close-minded, prudish, retroactive, game-playing, old-fashioned we were and how we would be soooo much happier if we stopped “restricting” ourselves.”
I literally run in the other direction when they start talking like this. I thought it was just my experience, but there seems to be a pattern with these types of men.
Great Post Alee!!!
Z,
“Do you have a link for that statement? Because I was under the impression Louisiana and Mississippi were worse… In fact, on the sites I’ve looked California barely comes up in everything EXCEPT (and this is a notable exception) in HIV/AIDS.”
Well, a high prevalence of AIDs (The Terrible) would be enough wouldn’t it?
But no matter, I do have a link. Go here and click on “Syphilis” and “Other STDs”.
You’ll notice that Los Angeles and San Francisco are #s 2 and 3, respectively, for Genital Warts (one of the incurable STDs…), out of the major cities listed… and straight men have it the worst! And you all might have squeezed by on the gonorrhea, but you have syphilis and chlamydia that rivals several Southern states.
“Fair enough. I can see that being how a person would react. But that didn’t exactly answer my question(s).”
The answer is: they can try, but ultimately things will only happen when the woman feels comfortable enough.
—
BWLivingWell,
“wow where was I during all this?”
I mean, that’s what I want to know.
“Great Post Alee!!!”
Don’t thank me, thank Zek. I’m only hosting for this conversation.
Alee,
Hmm, well I can honestly say I have no response to that! But I do take refuge in that I was only thinking of my personal dating experience when I made my comparative statement =P
Yup, and I was just adding that it’s not necessarily as neat and simple as you seem to be portraying it.
I think Bunny has a point (about liberal guys), but my bad experience with liberal guys is quite the opposite: they end up not being liberal at all! They judge you just like any other guy (if you sleep with them after 2 weeks you’re a slut); they just have a different rhetoric.
I’m aware it’s just a local thing, though.
But I think we’re all focusing on one aspect of Zek’s post: the way men (as the opposite of women) view sex in a relationship. What about the other issue raised in the post: the fact that (some) men don’t enjoy casual sex as much as it’s believed they do.
Ok, not all men. But in my experience, Zek is hardly the only guy here who didn’t find happiness and satisfaction (I’m not talking about mere sexual satisfaction here) with casual sex. MANY guys, in my experience, feel the same. They don’t enjoy it as much as they are perceived/encouraged to.
Just like not all women hate casual sex, not all men enjoy it. Heck, I’d say there are more men who hate it than women who like it.
But yes, there are many men who do it, and who will continue to do it, because it’s not about the sex, it’s about doing what you’re expected to. It means proving yourself as a man, so even if the experience was less than great, you can comfort yourself with the fact you proved yourself as a macho man (or whatever). Still, it doesn’t mean men truly enjoy it, not nearly as it’s perceived.
So I do think casual sex doesn’t really work for humans, because of the fact it’s usually not casual at all. It’s not (or, shall I say: it’s difficult to be made) casual by instinct or spontaneity. It has to be MADE that way. Which makes it not natural at all.
@Mira, I don’t think guys enjoy one-night standish sort of stuff as much as some think, but I think many enjoy friends with benefits situations. Because you get the comfort/closeness of relationship without having to fulfill other necessities of a relationship.
Yes, friends with benefits might be a different thing. But I don’t see them as one night stands or casual sex. It’s quite different.
And, like we already discussed, it can end badly, for any of the parties involved.
Friends with benefits is a form of casual sex, i.e. there are no strings attached (at least in theory…) and it takes place outside of a committed relationship. But it is different from the usual in that there is some sort of partnership there.
Well, that’s what I meant by “not spontaneously/instinctively casual”. Two people have to agree on it. But if they are friends, it’s not really casual, not in a way of “I can do this and completely forget about it and that person tomorrow… or until the next time we meet to have sex”.
IMO, it’s always a compromise. People do it when they feel they can’t get a satisfying relationship, or when they think they can’t deal with a relationship but want/need sex. Nothing wrong about it, but for some reason, those arrangements don’t work as easily as they should. (Since they’re “casual” and all).
Mira,
…if they are friends, it’s not really casual, not in a way of “I can do this and completely forget about it… until the next time we meet to have sex”.
That’s what it’s supposed to be like.
“I was kind of joking.
But I really would not have a problem at all if my SO had zero partners (I just know it’s unlikely… they’ll more than likely have at least a couple.). I’m not concerned at all with “sexual skill”; we have a whole lifetime to figure things out.”
Yeah same here, as long as shes interested in learning. I’d be pretty taken back if I thought I was dating a good girl, then we finally get in bed and shes a complete pro. I think alot of women who are that skilled are smart enough to play the role and play innocent and inexperienced the first time if their looking for a relationship. Women are clever nowadays, gotta stay on your toes.
“And that guy… what sort of women are you hanging around with? After 3 hours? That’s a little quick. And TMI about the period thing — you get around…”
Women at the beach, the mall, school, work. . . once from church lol. Honestly the 3 hour thing has only happened to me twice without alcohol, a couple more with. But one of my better looking friends who happens to also be about 6 foot 4 this happened to about 6 or 7 times these past 2 summers. I’m not gonna lie, females have told me he looks like a straight model, I used to hate going out to clubs with him because women would literally walk up to him, tell him their entire life story, and then ask him to come home with them. That has never happened to me even once haha. Well it happened with a cougar once, but that doesn’t count. Where do you go where you don’t meet these women? I’d like to stay away from those places if I’m ever single again.
“P.S. What did I tell you about the Mavericks?
While everyone was sweating the Heat (pun not intended), I called the Mavs as the winners, early on. Those shots were going to start falling sooner or later… and they just fell, right on top of BronBron’s dream of a championship.
”
Yeah, Dirk is my hero now. A couple of my friends were actually rooting for the Heat when the series started, but after Lebron starting acting like a spoiled kid they switched sides. I’m pretty sure almost the entire country was rooting for the Mavs.
“I beg to differ. Many a nonshallow woman has married a shallow-as-hell man, although I believe she was, as they say, “hoodwinked”. Besides, I’m sure you’d agree that the logical corollary to your argument, that only shallow men marry shallow women, is OBVIOUSLY not true. So, therefore, you are wrong sir ; )|”
@ Zek
Maybe not shallow, but gullible. The logical corollary does not apply here, men think differently from women.
that guy,
men think differently from women.
By differently do you mean they think in geometric shapes while men think in technicolor? Absolute statements like this sound vaguely sexist in that they assume men and women are somehow not both humanimals.
However are you saying that only gullible women marry shallow men? Or that only gullible men marry shallow women?
Men are from mars, women are from venus. I’m not saying men think better, just different, thats why alot of men and women have a hard time understanding each other.
All I’m saying is most shallow men I know end up marrying shallow women. Example, rich guy attracted to hot girl marries her for looks even though shes a complete slut and cheats on him all the time, but she only married because she’s shallow and just wants his money. Happens all the time.
Other example, guido marries guidette.
If you want to get technical, we can define precisely what constitutes a “shallow” or “gullible” person and look up a bunch of statistics to prove our point with misleading graphs, but I digress were off topic and I’m hungry.
that guy,
All I’m saying is most shallow men I know
So all you’re saying is based on your limited experience you think something is universally true?
Men are from mars, women are from venus.
Haha, no, men and women are from EARTH. Any attempt to polarize the genders is just simplistic, silly, and not to mention wrong ; )
I don’t think men and women are that different at all. They are socialized in different ways, and therefore act differently, but I do think the whole “Mars vs Venus” thing is pure crap.
It simply doesn’t work that way, and it’s quite sexist (from both sides) to look it that way.
That guy,
I’d be pretty taken back if I thought I was dating a good girl, then we finally get in bed and shes a complete pro. I think alot of women who are that skilled are smart enough to play the role and play innocent and inexperienced the first time if their looking for a relationship. Women are clever nowadays, gotta stay on your toes.
I won’t even go into the sexism of this post, I’m just going to point out you can’t really tell how experienced a person is. That’s just… wrong. You just can’t. You seem to have some issues. But I don’t think there’s something “wrong” with you personally. Many men tend to think like you, and some women accept to live with it.
that guy,
“I’d be pretty taken back if I thought I was dating a good girl, then we finally get in bed and shes a complete pro.”
Hey, what if she’s naturally talented? Some people just know how to drive their first time behind the wheel.
“Where do you go where you don’t meet these women? I’d like to stay away from those places if I’m ever single again.”
Lol.
Colleges and universities (yes, seriously), labs, friends of friends… I think it’s just the company I keep. Don’t worry, you shouldn’t have much problem staying away from these types of women.
“Yeah, Dirk is my hero now.”
*spits out drink*
…What?! No way.
Dirk was not the reason they won. He’s the reason they might not have won; he was dragging the team down with his horrific shooting! I kept praying they wouldn’t pass the ball to him. What was he, 1 of 12 in the first half? That is ridiculously bad for a supposed superstar in one of the final games of the championship. He was almost as bad as BronBron, and BronBron was worse than useless for every 4th quarter.
The reason they have rings right now (or will have them, if Mark Cuban quits his nonsense):
Jason Terry, Barea, Tyson Chandler, and Shawn Marion. The end.
“A couple of my friends were actually rooting for the Heat when the series started, but after Lebron starting acting like a spoiled kid they switched sides.”
Lebron has always acted like a spoiled (and arrogant) kid… How are they just now noticing that? Did you hear what he said at his post-game 6 press conference?…
“At the end of the day, all the people rooting for me to fail, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live. . . . They can get a few days or a few months on being happy about not only myself but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal, but they have to get back to the real world at some point.”
Someone on another blog commented:
“Well in the real world, I’ve got the same amount of NBA championship as you LBJ.”
*dead*
“I’m pretty sure almost the entire country was rooting for the Mavs.”
Not the Southeast!
that guy says:
“men think differently from women.”
Zek says:
“By differently do you mean they think in geometric shapes while men think in technicolor?”
Lol.
that guy,
“Men are from mars, women are from venus.”
Don’t you worry, my response to this book/way of thinking/BS shall be published at a blog near you, soon enough.
Mira,
“men and women are…are socialized in different ways, and therefore act differently”
Basically. Socialization could also affect the way they think, but it’s not anything biologically determined.
Dirk? I know that guy! He’s dating a mixed swedish dad/south african mom girl if i got it right
Yes, Dirk is dating a mixed Swedish girl, but I didn’t know her mom was South African. Very cool!
Nkosazana,
Yes, you’re right. Dirk’s girlfriend is Jessica Olsson. She seems like a really cool person and I like her fashion. But I’m laughing at people saying she must’ve been the key to Dirk’s winning the championship… as if he’s the reason they won.
And interesting that Dirk’s ex was also mixed black. But that’s another topic…
ETA: Bunny, you’re familiar with Dirk? Did you watch the Finals? If yes, reply back in the Clouds.
Yes, Dirk is dating a mixed Swedish girl, but I didn’t know her mom was South African. Very cool!
Someone said so
Her brother’s are quite good soccer players and they come from a good and well to do family from what I have read.
I want to hear Zek’s voice! But I don’t have speakers on this computer.
^Did you mean to add that in the Clouds?
Have you tried using headphones? His voice is very nice.
Huh? I posted that in the Clouds! (Or I thought so). Sorry for this.
I don’t have headphones.
Dirk struggled in the final game, but the rest of the series he was phenomenal. I mean, he averaged 26 points a game, his mere presence opened things up for Barea and Terry. You can’t judge him just based off the last game. And he did have a fever and a fractured finger.. And yeah, Jessica Olson is hot.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dirk_nowitzki/
Seriously if I were in charge of the Heat, I would trade Lebron to the Magic for Dwight, and get rid of Bosh for cap space and get some solid role players. Maybe a deal to the Magic with Lebron and a draft pick would score Dwight and Nelson. Wade and Dwight would have much better chemistry than Wade and Lebron, However I suspect Miami will gut their entire roster other than the big three and still come up short again next year for the same reason. Miami has no inside presence at all and Lebron has a terrible jumper. And Bosh is just too soft. He needs a strong leader, not some co-leading bs Lebron and Wade are doing. If heat are going to contend with the big three, they need a new coach too.
“Hey, what if she’s naturally talented? Some people just know how to drive their first time behind the wheel.
”
The riding test and the bj test. . . women can rarely master these without some amount of real life experience (tmi?). I haven’t seen it once, though I don’t actually get around as much as I may sound to.
“Colleges and universities (yes, seriously), labs, friends of friends… I think it’s just the company I keep. Don’t worry, you shouldn’t have much problem staying away from these types of women.
”
I guess. My absolute quickest time of meeting a girl and taking her home was with a lawyer I met at a night club in Philly. She was pretty robotic about it, I’m sure I wasn’t the first one night stand she had and won’t be the last. Some women know what they want and just go out and get it, I guess. She had a sweet car though. . . .
“Don’t you worry, my response to this book/way of thinking/BS shall be published at a blog near you, soon enough.
”
Then I’ll hold my further comments and reasoning till then. I suspect things will get heated haha.
“Haha, no, men and women are from EARTH. Any attempt to polarize the genders is just simplistic, silly, and not to mention wrong ; )”
Men and womens brains are wired differently. Biological fact, though I’m sure the BS politically correct viewpoint is that everybody is equal and exactly the same as everybody else. Since when is pointing out differences sexist. . . men have a penis and women have a vagina, is that sexist? Oops, I was supposed to hold that till the new topic comes out. . .
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article4175612.ece
Alee, maybe include some strong references to support whatever viewpoint you have? Yeah, that’s right, I’m assigning you homework
that guy,
“Then I’ll hold my further comments and reasoning till then. I suspect things will get heated haha.”
It won’t get heated because you’ll be shut down too quickly.
Believe me when I say that I’ve studied the science of sex differences for a long time. There is essentially nothing you can tell me that I haven’t heard before.
“Men and womens brains are wired differently. Biological fact”
What? Did I miss when this became a biological fact? Where was this published? Science? Nature?
You’re really telling a biologist that something is a biological fact. Well, I guess nothing is new under the sun.
“I’m sure the BS politically correct viewpoint is that everybody is equal and exactly the same as everybody else. Since when is pointing out differences sexist. . . men have a penis and women have a vagina, is that sexist?”
This is a straw man that you built up and knocked down yourself.
No one ever said that “Everybody is equal and the same”. What people said was that there are few sex differences that are strongly rooted in biology. And you haven’t proven otherwise.
“Alee, maybe include some strong references to support whatever viewpoint you have?”
Huh? I’m my own reference. People cite my studies, not the other way around. I’ve been teaching biology since I was in high school. I’ve probably taken more biology classes than you have taken classes, period. I work with this stuff every day. What have you done in biology?
I always think it’s hilarious when non-biologists try to tell biologists what’s “biological fact”. Would Hillary Clinton tell Dwayne Wade he needs to work on his defense? Oh, but I forgot: everyone’s a biologist if they can use Google.
I don’t want this to be “le expert” vs. the layman, but that’s basically what this comes down to. I just can’t believe you’re actually trying to play this with me like it will work.
As for your “citation”… so what? Simon Baron-Cohen is a well-known and well-criticized gender essentialist and sexist. If I were you I wouldn’t use him as source material, even indirectly. I could just as easily paste studies upon studies that contradict your secondary source. You’d be buried in studies.
The reality is that there is ZERO consistency to the theory of biologically determined gender differences. Even reading “Gay, Straight, and the Reason Why” (which I summarized and you can find in the Books category), I had to cringe at how shakily they put everything together. The researchers can’t even agree half of the time on what differences there are between the genders, so how could they claim they exist? And their definitions have changed over time… with the times, which suggests that their entire model is nothing more than pigeonholing and close-mindedness couched in sloppy research.
What you need to read: Brain Storm: The Flaws in the Science of Sex Differences. Rebecca Jordan-Young goes through the majority of research on sex differences and shows exactly how each is flawed and inconsistent.
Actually, I review the less weighty parts of the book here: Creating Gender. Perhaps you should begin there.
Go on girl! Blind him with S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
I actually have no issues with the notion that men and women have different cultures which lend each gender to a different set of behaviors. What I have a problem with is the rigid drawing of lines, and justification of mean-spirited behavior. It also needlessly complicated the dating scene.
Sherry,
“I actually have no issues with the notion that men and women have different cultures which lend each gender to a different set of behaviors.”
All differences aren’t rooted in socialization and culture; there are some which are biological. But most of them have never been shown to be, especially the ones that people discuss the most.
“What I have a problem with is the rigid drawing of lines, and justification of mean-spirited behavior.”
If those rigid lines were based on credible research and not the status quo, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But of course I always have a problem with mean-spirited behavior. And yes, biological determinism has always been used to justify mean-spiritedness; all the “isms” and phobias.
Funny how it’s always the group which is favored by ideas based on the biological determinism who espouse it the most. Of course many men would like to believe that sex differences are rooted in biology because that means they never have to think about or try to change sexist or misogynist behaviors and attitudes, and they can continue to benefit from societies which place men on a pedestal. I highly doubt they’d support the idea of biologically determined sex differences –no matter how consistent the research behind it– if they didn’t benefit from the status quo.
Alee, ladies, gentlemen, We ARE wired differently. That’s also my belief. No need for scientific proof. I’m working with enough women/men to see this fact. I just wonder why we women fight so much against this?. See all the articles you’ve written on this blog so far, gather the responses from us females, that’s more than enough proof. Trust and I’ve experienced this first hand, even today: MEN UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT US BETTER THAN WE DO OURSELVES. Tis true!.
Your very sad womanist.
foosrock,
“We ARE wired differently.”
Prove it. You’ll have a bunch of predecessors.
“No need for scientific proof.”
Huh? You don’t need scientific proof for something that is supposed to be based in biological science? That’s some clumsy logic.
“I’m working with enough women/men to see this fact.”
Maybe most of these differences arise from something else besides “wiring”? Is that so hard to imagine?
I also don’t believe anyone said that men and women don’t behave differently in general. Can you point out where someone said that because I must’ve missed it? I never said that, and you will never see me say that; what I said is that it has little to do with biology.
…Otherwise I’m at loss as to why people are creating straw men and proceeding to kick them down with all their might.
“MEN UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT US BETTER THAN WE DO OURSELVES.”
I’m sure they’d beg to differ on the first part!
You hottie, you!. Asking me to score the net for surveys backing up my comments!. Typical female. I rest my case!.
Oh and if “wiring” means, nature, ie borne like this, then YES!. Otherwise, please expound to this “overdone” expat…….(me not speak updated American english!)
Men and women, in general do BEHAVE differently. But it doesn’t mean it’s because of biology.
Remember culture? THAT’s the one.
I’m just going to butt out here, I’m not a biologist, and though many scientists and researchers do agree there are differences in the way men and women think, I’m sure there are also others such as yourself who don’t, not my field, signing off. . .
that guy,
The main problem in researching humans is the fact you can never be sure what part of our behaviour is natural, and what part is cultural.
Everything points that human behaviour is determined more by cultural than biological factors, but it is, in part determined by biology. The problem is, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to say which part that is. Also, it’s impossible to find ANY aspect of human behavior that isn’t determined by culture.
The only way to tell is to do experiments, but it’s quite difficult to conduct them, because, like I said, you can never tell which part of behaviour is cultural. So scientist try by using animals or very small children as subjects, because it’s believed they aren’t affected by culture.
However, using these subjects is not the best thing. If you use animals, you… Well, it’s obvious: you aren’t using humans. Plus, whatever thing you conclude can point in any direction of sexual behavior (for example, that it’s “natural” for men, not women, to be under the beauty bind, and that is natural for women to be highly promiscuous – and proponents of venus vs mars theory claim it’s quite the opposite).
Using small children seems like a better idea, but the trick is, there’s only a limited number of experiments you can do on babies, and, basically, only newborns are good for this, because even toddlers are already affected by culture so you can never tell which part of their behavior is biological and which is cultural. For example, even a 2 year old child is affected by cultural norms and gender ideals, so you have to do experiments on children who are even younger. And what kind of sexuality or male/female brain can you detect with a newborn, that will also be true for an adult?
See the problem?
However, it IS proved that human behavior is, in large part, guided and determined by culture, not biology. Even the most natural things, like eating or urinating, are shaped by culture. You can’t escape that. So what makes you think sexual behavior is any different?
And I guess all people understand that sexual (or any other) behavior is in part cultural, but I don’t think they realize that the MAJORITY of it is cultural, not biological.
foosrock,
“You hottie, you!. Asking me to score the net for surveys backing up my comments!. Typical female. I rest my case!.”
Wouldn’t that make me “typical male”? Women are the illogical ones who believe whatever they “feel” without evidence. So I guess that would make you typical female?
“Oh and if “wiring” means, nature, ie borne like this, then YES!. Otherwise, please expound to this “overdone” expat…’
Isn’t that your job? You have to expound on why you think it’s biological. Simply because you see that observe men and women act in certain ways doesn’t prove they were born that way. Is there “wiring” that causes people to go to work or school every day?
—
that guy,
“though many scientists and researchers do agree there are differences in the way men and women think”
“Many” is probably not the right word to use here. “A few” would be more accurate; probably ~15 percent. And they are best buddies with each other because they have similar agendas.
I wouldn’t have a problem with biological mechanisms being the cause for certain behaviors. That’s why I’ve always been interested in biology in the first place — to understand how the world works. But there is no consistency in research behind sexual differences. And I don’t like inconsistency.
And again, no one said that men and women don’t think or behave differently, or that there are no biological differences. There are. But they are greatly exaggerated by people who make hasty assumptions based on their limited experiences and/or close-mindedness.
I would generally agree, for example, that women are better with words than men are, and men are better with numbers. There have been enough large studies, which show internal consistency and consistency with other studies on the matter, for me to believe that this is generally true.
However, the difference is not large and it’s an average — individual women can be better with numbers than individual men, and vice versa. And this difference can easily be overcome with a bit more training by men or women in their weaker areas. So much so that the difference is no longer noticeable. So again we have culture which is as important if not more important than biological factors.
What biology predetermines, culture makes malleable.
Intelligence & IQ scores are often used — incorrectly — to determine your overall smarts and success. But our last president was a C student, with mediocre language skills (among other faults) and he rose to the highest elected office in one of the most powerful countries in the world. Would you say that he’s an outlier? Or would you say he’s proof that while we may be circumscribed in many ways by our genetics, that our culture changes the playing field from one of purely biologic to one where the two interact? Ours is a world where even a dumb*** can become leader of the free world!
And you still believe in the debunked falsity of essential differences that cannot, or are not overcome in a daily basis by individuals through cultural processes? Le sigh. Such is the layperson, who knows not of what they speak.
^What he said.
Just wanted to add my two cent even if it’s a little late. I see on the internet and IRL people ( by men AND women) passing judgment on women, and I think it’s grossly unfair. It doesn’t matter whether she waits or not, there will always be people making some sort of judgment about said woman. Calling people lame, naive, old-fashioned, or worse “loose” or a slut for making personal choices is so out of line. I especially find it interesting how people who are sexually liberated say they don’t want to be judge, then turn around and judge people who believe in waiting (be it week, months, years or forever).
I personally am waiting to marriage, and I’m not bending for anyone. Whether a guy likes it or not, that’s *my* personal decision. The guys whom I found to not be in sync with my views, we parted ways peacefully. There is no need for me to degrade them for their personal views. There is no need for them to give me a 50 minute speech on what’s wrong with me and how I need to be liberated like so called “today’s woman”. Just move the heck on!!! Everyone has different views on this, and apparently there is no “one size fit all” approach to dating & mating. Just find that person with whom you share the same beliefs/views and go from there. Sheesh, I think people make the whole dating scene, yes even in today’s seemingly chaotic dating scene, way more complicated than it should be.
About the post: yes, I do know men who don’t enjoy casual sex or sex with random women that they don’t like. In fact, I know men who even believe in either being abstinent until marriage or only having sex within committed relationships. I can’t say that’s the majority of men, though, just like I can’t say the majority of women are like that.
Hi Golden Life, welcome, welcome.
It’s never too late to add your thoughts! That’s why Recent Comments are displayed.
And I completely agree that women are judged so harshly no matter what. And, yes, finding someone whose views agree with your own in this area is truly important.
Okay Miss Golden Life,
I have been duly chastised. My apologies. I should have just said waiting for marriage would not work for me.
I fully support your wait, and want you to find that special someone soon.
I agree. It’s amazing how many men and women expects no games, no BS and especially, no drama of any kind when engaging in any casual sex relationships – particularly the FWB type. This is a VERY unrealistic expectations.
Not too long ago, after several weeks of chatting with a single professional man I met online (I’m a married woman), we finally met up and shared an extremely passionate sex. We were both very attracted to each other and there was definitely a beautiful chemistry between us. When we finally finished our steamy daytime play, I quickly dressed up and head to his apartment’s front door. I gave him a quick kiss on the lips as my way of saying “That was amazing! Goodbye…” I turned around and never looked back. To me it was just a one-time thing and that was it. Then I realized, I need to drive home fast to begin sorting out any important marital issues I have with my husband. I thought, “Wow, no games, no BS and no drama hot sex with a nice and cute stranger?! Seems like a well-edited HD porn movie only I was in it, AWESOME!” Haha.
I was wrong. The guy was really p*ssed when he found out I don’t really have any intentions of seeing him again. I was thinking, “I thought this guy and I had both agreed on zero emotions and 100% physical sex? So, why is he upset?” Of course, as humans, nothing more painful to men than a sharp blade of rejection from women they really like. As you probably can tell, I mistakenly assumed that when it comes to casual sex all men belongs to the “Hit It & Quit It” club.
In the end (and after suffering from emotional stress due to heavy and overwhelming GUILTY feeling), I wrote the guy an e-mail to let him know that casual sex is NOT for me. And most definitely, NOT for him.
Hi happywifey,
How are you so happily wifed if you cheated on your husband? (I read that correctly, right?)
“It’s amazing how many men and women expects no games, no BS and especially, no drama of any kind when engaging in any casual sex relationships – particularly the FWB type. This is a VERY unrealistic expectations.’
Tell me about it: Why Friends With Benefits Does Not Work. Your comment would be quite fitting there as well, but I’ll probably interlink the articles later.
“As you probably can tell, I mistakenly assumed that when it comes to casual sex all men belongs to the “Hit It & Quit It” club.’
LOL. You wouldn’t be the first, and you’re not going to be the last.
And that is what is wrong with relationships in the western world and why marriages don’t last longer than 5 year here for the most part. People have no shame. I guess it come with the whole sexual revolution y’all had over here and now no one believes in being faithful any more, women who used to be proud, but no longer thinks it’s not that big of a deal hooking up with random strangers if you’re married.
I might be a bit dirty minded but I’m married and in my tradition you can be dirty minded after you get married because well you married and marriage is suppose to be honoured and sacred. Before my wedding day, the married women took me aside to tell me the duties of a wife and how to make things enjoyable for both, women talk about everything, my grandmother gave me great advice on how to get a man hard if he’s having a ‘hard’ time getting it up for example. But cheating is a big no-no and a good way to find yourself frozen out from social and family events.
Marriage have turned into a joke. I don’t get it why do people get married if they don’t love a person? If people really loves a person you don’t sleep around. And I feel sorry for the person who have to sleep next to a person who don’t really loves her/him.
Oh well I’ll crawl back under my rock with my ignorant and primitive African believes that have no value in a ‘modern and enlighten’ society.
Because my response to your boy Zek would fill up a book, I wrote a rebuttal post. I’d love to get your feedback. http://actsoffaithblog.com/evaluating-men-for-alliances-marriage-series-10-a-male-chauvinist-pig-by-any-other-name-still-oinks
Faith,
Wow, you certainly engage in a lot of misandry in that post you linked. And you missed the point of the post too, because I don’t recall ever writing in it that I want to justify casual sex. In fact, my advice could actually be used to justify waiting for a loooooong time to have sex with someone. I said, and have always said, to have sex when you want to.
But why would you say some demeaning like this?
They want to have sex with as many women as possible no strings attached. The end. Even the “nice” ones.
Especially the “nice” ones.
I mean, do you think misogyny is best combated with misandry? Or do you think hate doesn’t breed more hate? I ask earnestly because you wrote QUITE A BIT, about what I said and yet you seemingly didn’t understand any of it, which is troubling to say the least since it was pretty straight-forward.
Shoot, disagreement is fine, but do you really believe this?
If you don’t think men hold women in contempt shall we revisit the stats for the poor social conditions of black women in this country – 75% out of wedlock and never married. Sounds like quite a few guys decided to hit it and quit it without nary a second thought.
I mean… damn. That’s some serious intentions to prove that men in general hate women in general, which is not only false, but laughably so.
Anyhoo, thanks for the press though, I guess. I’ll reread your post some more and reply in kind over at my place. In meantime, may I suggest you seriously consider what I’ve written, and instead of seeing what you want, try actually reading through my post.
Or don’t. But since you seem upset, so I’m trying to help.
Alee,
Actually, before I go ahead and write my own take on her rather long response, I’m not sure how many people you want to know about your blog here. I understand the clientele here is meant to be select, so I’m wondering since she went ahead and linked to your blog if I may do the same instead of reposting my guest-post here over at my own blog to prologue my actual response.
If not, no worries. I just thought I’d ask.
Ugh, one last thing!
Regarding this statement, Faith,
That story he told about the aborted one night stand was very telling. This woman he’d picked up was drunk as a skunk. It was 4am and I guess she had sobered up enough at this point to realize she had brought home a stranger who was in her apartment and in her bed and wanted to no part of it. Common sense overruled the “you can have sex like a man mantra” that’s damaging women.
She got drunk AFTER she came to meet me at the open-mic I host. We’d met before then, and she’d asked ME out. When we went back to her place, I got her off first, and then she just fell asleep! (Sound familiar?) When I went to use the bathroom, I came back to see her kind of awake and the whole exchange went down. My original version was meant to be a little bit more discreet since gentlemen generally shouldn’t kiss & tell, but since you seemed to — again — completely miss the point, I feel compelled to let you know: 1) I’d gone out with this girl before 2) She approached me 3) I wasn’t a victim, but I did learn a life-lesson. Oh, and 4) you probably need to check yourself since you keep missing the obvious in my post and comments =/
I can only hope it’s just a simple misunderstanding, because nobody’s that ignorant. I hope.
Faith,
My $.02: Sorry, but I just can’t take a blogger that uses 10 different fonts and colors seriously. It’s too difficult to read, so I just skimmed and gave up.
P.S. Faith,
^^^^^ That’s my girlfriend =)
Nkosazana,
“Oh well I’ll crawl back under my rock with my ignorant and primitive African believes that have no value in a ‘modern and enlighten’ society.”
LOL. No, you can stay.
I don’t think you’re old-fashioned… many people see cheating as a deal-breaker, whether they’re “enlightened” or not.
I just hope happywifey returns to clarify since she didn’t provide too many details. The way she described the situation seemed like cheating, but we don’t know the whole story.
Faith,
I saw your response yesterday morning… I skimmed it since I was busy, but I’ll try to read it more thoroughly today, if I can and provide a response.
This part also jumped out at me:
‘They want to have sex with as many women as possible no strings attached. The end. Even the “nice” ones.
Especially the “nice” ones.’
I can’t co-sign that because my experience doesn’t agree. I don’t think all men want is endless casual sex. Surely some men do, but not all or even most, I’d say.
—
Zek,
I don’t think Faith was being misandrist with that comment. She’s probably just speaking of her experience. And knowing Faith (a little), I don’t think she’s misandrist in general, but she’s pretty blunt.
No, please don’t link here. You have too many undesirables lurking over at your place. You feed them milk and cookies so they stay around. Faith doesn’t. LOL.
Here’s an idea:
Why don’t you write your response, email it to me, and I’ll publish it here? Part 2? (This post seems like it’s due for a Part 2 anyway.) Since the conversation began over here, it’s better to keep it together rather than fragmenting it.
Alee,
Hmm… Iunno, when someone starts telling me that men are all pigs and that women need to treat them accordingly, I’m sorry but that sounds downright misandrist to me. She might not be at the same level as a CEO in the patriarchy, but the sentiment is still unacceptable in a society struggling with diversity. I mean seriously, she judges men as contemptuous of women because of marriage rates?? So, by not marrying someone, but still having sex with them that man is a chauvinist pig. By that standard almost every man in the world is a chauvinist (and so is almost every woman) and that’s just ridiculous.
However, you say you know her best, so I’ll consider your perspective. But I will say that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then as far as I can tell over the internet it must be a duck. I’ll save the rest for my response, and thanks.
P.S. I’m more afraid of the undesireables at Faith’s place than mine =/
Least I moderate comments.
Sistah Nkosazana,
I L-O-V-E the fact that the older women in your community take the younger ones aside to school them on sexuality before they get married. What a wonderful way to own your body, as well as draw upon the strength and wisdom of our mothers ..
To Alee:
Thank you for asking me for additional details about my post…
To post my story and expect no questions, misunderstandings, opinions and judgements from other readers would be very unbelievably ignorant and extremely arrogant on my part. Please understand that I’m NOT advocating marital infidelities of any kind nor I want the whole world to know that I feel exceedingly “proud” and “empowered” as a woman after that experience. In fact, it was quite the opposite (and of course, this is hardly a big surprise).
Fortunately, I am NOW a happy wife and I plan to stay that way – and remain honest and faithful to my husband- for as long as I’m married.
I will post my clarifications shortly…
Zek,
Did Faith say all men were pigs? I know it might seem like someone is talking about all of group when they make statements without qualifiers like “some” or “many” or “a few”. But I’ve read several of her past posts, and she advocates the idea of women vetting men to find one who will treat them the way they should be treated… in other words, she doesn’t think they’re all terrible.
I sent you an email regarding your follow-up.
—
Hi happywifey,
“Fortunately, I am NOW a happy wife and I plan to stay that way – and remain honest and faithful to my husband- for as long as I’m married.”
That’s good to hear.
Glad you’ve returned to clarify.
Sherry,
It was nice to get a lot of good advice and ‘secrets’ from them.
It’s good that my people is reverting back to old practices again when they get out of the shacks to nicer areas. Cuts down on OOW children and HIV for starters (Men have to pay a lot if they get a girl pregnant or take her virginity and her family finds out about it) and it makes girls feel proud in that they don’t open their legs for everyone but their husbands.
You should see my cousin after she felt the need to have some extra dick in her life when her husband was out working and providing for her, her father haven’t spoken to her after he had to repay the ilobola and extra to the mans family. She’s not welcome to family events, not my babies baptism or the Sangoma blessings or any future events concerning anyone in family..
GO BUNNY GO!!!!! And thank you. Sex is waay too complicated for the average woman to take lightly with random men. There is scientific evidence that shows the immediate connection most women have when they engage in sex with a man – read up on a chemical called OXYTOCIN (not to be confused with the pain killer drug Oxycotin). One such PHD relationship guru (Pat Allen) even broke it down to actual time frames. I believe she wrote about how when a woman orgasms with a male the chemical oxytocin (sp?) is released causing such woman to instantly feel connected (like “he is my man” connected) with her sex partner to the point it can take up to 2 years before these feelings subside.
I have never bought into the idea that casual sex benefits women. Even as a young woman. Granted, I have had casual sex in my day and EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. I became attached the to the guy wanting more – finding myself very hurt and upset if it didn’t progress. That is how MOST women will feel after having casual sex. Its natural for a woman to have an emotional connection to a man she is having sex with. I am of the belief that a woman’s body is her temple and she should treat it as such. Men are wired and built differently. Yes that means we are different in many ways.
Women don’t realize how much we control the sex “game”. When women lose all their sexual boundaries, men are the beneficiaries NOT women. I don’t care to hear about the new day feminist approach saying “don’t place all women into boxes” blah blah blah. It is what it is. There are always exceptions but I am talking about the general rule. And the fact is MOST women (with any self respect) cannot handle casual sex to the degree that nothing ever comes of it but sex. Often times women are usually having causal sex b/c they mistakenly believe it places them in great favor with said male. Yeah it does, b/c he is now grateful for the fact that he didn’t have to wait to get laid.
I don’t buy into the new school of thinking that women and men are the same and women (like men) can just sleep around (like males) and not have any kinds of emotional attachments. I cringe every time I hear some woman say “ well men can sleep around with 50 women and not be called names but if a woman does it she’s a slut” Okay what WOMAN in her right mind wants a bunch of random strange dudes pushing in and out of her vagina?? Its just sick twisted thinking. Just think about even how the woman’s sexual organs are placed compared to the males. The biggest sexual organ (vagina) on a woman intimately is INWARD – inside. You are letting someone INSIDE OF YOU. Those male juices/fluids (sorry for the tmi ) are being pushed into your body. Yes even those strange random men that you take home or sleep with before even knowing who and what they are. Those male juices don’t just come right out. They stay inside and marinate w/ your juices/fluids. Now add in all the random men that a woman may sleep with b/c she is having “organic casual sex” and its just disgusting for lack of a better word. You have the essence of different men swirling inside of you. The male sexual organ is outward. They don’t have women’s juices swirling inside of them marinating. If they get an STD it usually shows up on his member. Everything is outward. Just thinking of it that way says even their sexual organs as men are pushed away and outward from his body. Thinking about it on a philosophical level of “outward”/” pushed away” = less feelings of attachment and “inward, inside” = more feelings of connection.
That is why it even reported that its easier for women to contract AIDS and STD’s from males than the other way around. YES there is evidence that suggests so. it has to do with the way the woman’s intimate organs are placed compared to the males and how easily a woman’s body can hold onto all kinds of fluids b/c everything inside. sounds crazy but I have always taken it a step further to look at it that way even if it sounds like hogwash. LOL
In the end what I am saying is – casual sex for women in general is a big fat SCAM today that truly benefits men.
Now I’m sure all women at some point get horny and have lustful thoughts and may want to jump a mans bones (or in some cases have him jump yours). Heck I have those feelings more often than I probably need to (lol) especially that time of the month (okay sorry for the TMI) but NO MALE IS SAFE from my lustful thoughts during that period. I actually have fun with myself thinking these nasty lustful things bc I know when its all sad and done my self respect and feelings are left in tact by just thinking and not doing – or if I MUST I may have a romp with the good ole vibrator LOL (okay more TMI) sorry we’re all adults here right? Smile . But I would never give into my lustful feelings for just casual sex b/c it becomes too complicated in the end.
I’m lucky to have friends whom I can live vicariously through as I hear about their one night stands and passionate love fests with random men shrugs. Of course I am doing the consoling or being the voice of reason often times when they wonder why dude “isn’t communicating” or why the “relationship” won’t progress to gf/bf status. Sigh such is life. So if said woman simply decides she’s just “gotta have it” and is willing to deal with the consequences of possible feelings of attachment, STD or ending up with some CRAZY afterwards – then have at it. I don’t judge women either way. Like I said, I have friends who sleep with men at the drop of a dime. A good friend once told me that the reason I am “uptight” (we had an argument about something) is b/c I don’t have casual sex. YES. Meanwhile this is a woman who met a guy at a burger joint down from her house and took him home that night and not only had regular sex but also did oral on him. Always consider the source ladies!
Oh hai, Neecy… Fancy seeing you here! Welcome.
I’m with you on the attachment that often occurs after sex. I’ve written more about it and the biological processes: Why People Become Attached After Intimacy (also listed under the See also section of this post). Feel free to read it and/or add your thoughts.
Hi Neecy! Longtime, no chat!
You know I’m with you 100%!!!
That is why it even reported that its easier for women to contract AIDS and STD’s from males than the other way around.
You know, I knew this, but I forgot to mention this point too. It’s just silly for a guy to say, to a certain effect, “Oh, use condoms and contraceptives and get tested and you’ll be fine. Nothing happened to me!” Well, duh, because of the external nature of a man’s genitals he’s less likely to get something!!! Simply by being women we are more prone to all sorts of STDs!
I have noticed something interesting in this whole exchange though — age. The most vocal objectors are women in their 30s who’ve either been there and done that, or been there and seen/heard that… The biggest “be free and live organically” supporter is a 20-something man.
I don’t know about you, but if I was an undecided young woman reader, I’d put my money on the voices of actual experience from the female perspective!
Alee,
Yes I will defitnitley visit your link as I was very fascinated to learn scientifically and biologically why women usually become more attached to their sexual partners than men. I used myself and even speaking with friends and seeing them go through these changes as the litimus test for this and it rings true. Just never knew why. So heading over now…..
Bunny,
“The most vocal objectors are women in their 30s who’ve either been there and done that, or been there and seen/heard that… The biggest “be free and live organically” supporter is a 20-something man…I don’t know about you, but if I was an undecided young woman reader, I’d put my money on the voices of actual experience”
Oh no, ageism.
The issue with deciding whose opinion is worth more weight based on age is that though there is a correlation between age and experience, age doesn’t always bring wisdom and it sometimes doesn’t bring experience either. There are women in their 30s who married young and/or have no experience with casual sex (e.g. Nkosazana — not to put you out there
). And then there are younger people who have plenty of experience with casual sex and its upsides and downsides and are very wise about it.
I just hate to see people’s ideas and thoughts overlooked because of their age and while I respect “elders” I don’t put stock into someone’s opinion just because they’re older.
I know, I’m not trying to be ageist… I was talking more about the combination of age and gender and experience (whether seen or heard) going on here. And excess testosterone, perhaps.
And I realize that someone who’s 40 or 50 could say, “What do you 30-something whippersnappers really know anyway?” And as I mentioned in the Clouds, I had my mother, who’s much older, giving me terrible dating advice based on her life experience… while a lot has changed today.
My point is actually that there isn’t a wide gap between someone who’s say, 25 and someone else who is, say, 31. But if I’m the 25 year old who’s high on life and living in my own ideological world, and a female peer six years older goes, “Wait, not so fast and let me tell you why,” I’m going to listen.
While I learned to ignore a lot of my mother’s dating advice, the 40-something married woman with what appeared to be a strong relationship was the woman I consulted for tips moreso than the 30-something peer who was still living like Carrie on Sex and the City and then wondered why she couldn’t find Mr. Right.
One thing I notice about us “younger folks” (and I still put myself in that category) is that we think we’ve stumbled onto these new and amazing and awesome ideas, and if everyone just understood how great and awesome and amazing these ideas were, the world would be a better place!
Until we realize that those new and innovative ideas are just rehashes of what our predecessors in the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, etc., thought were amazing, awesome and world-changing, until they sat back and realized that a lot of them actually weren’t all that practical, realistic or innovative at all. Or that the pendulum swung too far in the other direction and now it needs to be pushed back to the middle.
Youth is a great benefit in many ways, and some elders could stand to listen to us! At the same time, younger people (I say, under, uh, 40) tend to suffer from a general lack of perspective and put forth lots of ideological concepts that sound good, but really don’t work very well at all. We just don’t figure that out until we’ve gained a little more life experience.
BUNNY,
Yes I think you presented you argument well. There always needs to be two sides to a coin when we are talking about sex. Sex can be and is often a slippery slope for women in general and it NEVER something we should take casually or lightly – too many possible negative variables that come with “casual sex”.
This idea that sex is such a big deal or has all these comprehensive variables when it comes to men irks me. MEN are naturally wired to want sex. PERIOD. It doesn’t take much for them to want it. Its natural. The average male doesn’t need any “emotional connections” with a woman before sex. Add in that men are typically very visual it pretty much shows how non complicated they are when it comes to matters of sex and attraction and what they will do to satisfy those needs of release. So giving into a very simple NATURAL desire that a male has IMO is not going to cause any wins on the woman’s part. Winning a male over to see you beyond his natural desire for a sexual quest and seeing you as a compatible mate who has more qualities than your physical sexual outward appearance suggests is the real win and challenge of it all. Too many women have lost sight of this. They believe that by having casual sex with a man is somehow going to cause him to develop some sort of favor of her in his eyes b/c she is not “being uptight”….
My friend who makes such a big deal about how she sleeps with men I just SMH at her. I had to break it down to her one day and tell her bluntly “as a woman having sex with a man isn’t hard”. Some women will act like they have achieved something of great value b/c they got some man in the sack. Its just mind boggling how women today don’t see how we have been scammed out of seeing the realities of things when it comes to sex and men and where we fit in this puzzle and how to control the reigns. And as you have put in some of your posts YEARS, DECADES of scientific and biological proof that could save everyone heartache, diseases, drama and DENIAL. LOL
Now I am even going to go more extreme and unpopular by taking it a step further and say that men are biologically wired to want to have sex with as many attractive women as they can throughout their life. This is not to say that all men cannot control this desire to a certain degree. brace thyself for the controversial part coming…..NOW IMO, It is WOMEN who civilize men to see us more than just sexual conquests. Now understand what I am saying isn’t really so negative towards men. I believe its in their true nature as male beings to simply be driven by sex b/c of how they are made. I can’t hold that against them, just as I can’t hold against women our natural desire and need for connection and partnership on a deeper level than just sex. Women need to use that male desire and work it to a degree where we can still benefit and not be left out in the dust. IOW’s PROTECT OURSELVES.
In civilized countries and in patriarchal societies men have to be SOCIALIZED and RAISED to see women as equals, partners, marriage prospects for more than just their basic desire for sex with a woman. And it is women who drive this. When we get into a society where women are no longer teaching men how to see us as more than sexual quests for their natural needs of release, then Houston we have a problem. When women lose their sexual boundaries and fall in line with the “anything goes” meme when it comes to sex, you are just tossing all the benefits of your womanhood into the males hands and court. I know some may say this sounds all like a “game” that women play but sorry folks, it’s a MUST. In a patriarchal world a woman must be very in tune with men on a psychological level and their basic needs and how to balance them for her benefits or she will find herself in a world of trouble.
Neecy,
The thing is, I grew up with a father (and brother) who are very much the opposite of the picture you’re portraying. My mother was the first and only woman my father ever slept with. He liked her and her only, and really had no interest in getting with other women. He didn’t and doesn’t have a roving eye, he doesn’t even notice other women in that manner. My brother is similar but a little more excitable; he’ll notice women, but he’s not the casual sex type really. So my initial experiences of “what men are like” don’t jive with the idea that they’re all maniacal beasts who just want sex, (beer, and football).
I would think they are the exception, but I’ve known other men who are similar (in addition to those who just want sex, beer, and football). I don’t think they were socialized any special way; actually, my paternal grandmother and mother tend to be more on the “boys will be boys side” so you’d think they’d be more stereotypical.
—
Bunny,
“My point is actually that there isn’t a wide gap between someone who’s say, 25 and someone else who is, say, 31.”
Yes. But a lot of people tend to think there is.
“Until we realize that those new and innovative ideas are just rehashes of what our predecessors in the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, etc., thought were amazing, awesome and world-changing”
Nuh uh! My ideas are really new, amazing, and awesome. Yes, they are.
I think men are wired to want sex. It IS natural, I think. But so are women. No more, and no less than them. Female sexual drive isn’t any weaker than male sexual drive. Men and women act differently, but it’s because of cultural reasons, not because of nature. (Well, some part of it is based in biology, but the difference in strength of sexual drive isn’t one of them).
For example, animals. Out of the promiscuous animals, (and not all of them are promiscuous, which, I believe, depends on whether one parent is sufficient for caring of the offspring, among other things) males mate with as many females as they can find. Same goes for females: they mate with as many males as they can find. It’s not unusual to see female animals mate with one male now, and another one after an hour… and so on, as long as she’s in the heat. A female hamster “freezes” herself and raise her tiny tail at whatever male approaches her during the heat. He needs to provide her oral sex first, though, (and to himself), before he jumps on her. (Needless to say, she doesn’t provide him oral sex, lol).
So the male strategy is to eliminate other males and be females’ only option. Or to be the prettiest of them all and make female go after them.
Humans have a special strategy, though: they often isolate females and raise them in such a way to view sex (particularly outside the marriage) as bad.
None of these strategies would be necessary if females truly had weak sexual drive.
Of course, human sexuality is different than animals’, in part because human females don’t show obvious signs of ovulation and the estrous cycle is bit different. Meaning: no heat, no mating season: we (humans) are in the mood all the time and have sex even on the wrong time of female cycle. But none of it means men have stronger sexual urges than women, or that their sexual drive is any stronger than women’s. Like I said before, some cultures believe(d) that women, in fact, are those with the stronger urges (though I wouldn’t say that’s true either).
Neecy,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you view male and female relationships as some sort of a battle and power struggle. Either they win, or we win, and historically, they were the winners, so now we must do whatever necessary to keep the power we have. I do agree women have been discriminated and treated as less than human in many societies (including today’s societies), but none of this should be translated to personal level.
Meaning, I don’t want to see a man I’m dating and marrying as a potential enemy. I don’t want to have power over him any more than I want him to have power over me. And I sure don’t want my “power” to be located in my vagina, be it in a form of “giving” or “withholding” sex.
I sure don’t want to be respected because of my vagina (and the fact I only let a few, or none men come inside of it).
I am a person (we all are), and I want to be respected as a full human, or criticized and disliked as a full human, not because of my vagina or my sexual behavior.
Alee,
I hear you. I also have a wonderful father and two younger brothers. My father was never the type to sleep around and have a lot of women. He is a loyal man who was a great father and husband. My younger brother (in his 20’s) always has some sort of girlfriend (IOW’s he is not a player just bedding girls). HOWEVR, he is still a MAN and I am quite sure he is no different from the rest of the male species in his natural desires for sex. What I am saying is regardless of whether a man *ACTS* on their natural desires or not – they still exist. ALL males have a natural desire tendency to be visually stimulated by women (that is if they are heterosexual) and that is b/c they are driven by sexual desires. This is Biological for a reason. Just as its biological for women to naturally want connection and partnership. Also lends credit to the idea that women are the “pickier” sex b/c we are not biologically driven by SIMPLE visual and sexual desires as men are. This does not mean all men go out to the clubs, bars malls trying to pick up women for sexual quests.
This is where I use the nice nerdy guys as an example. They just like the hot stud going out having sex with all kinds of women are only different in the idea that they do not respond as animalisticaly as some men who use their basic desire for sex to bed as many women as possible. Often times “shier” males will masturbate or enjoy photos of sexually appealing women or view pornography to satisfy that urge. Most commonly will enter into a monogamous relationship with a woman in where he will have a higher likelihood of consistent intimacy with a woman who trusts him. I am sure we have all heard of the “horny teen male”. What do you think most of them are doing once they reach puberty? MASTURBATING. WHY? B/C they are fulfilling a natural desire for sexual release that is within them as males. I don’t believe most teen girls are masturbating b/c it’s a natural need and desire for them. I believe if young teen girls do, its bc they are socialized to think this way. I could be wrong though…
Why do you think the pin up models were so popular back in the day. B/C men and boys are naturally driven to stimulate their basic needs for sexual pleasure by fantasizing about women who are visually appealing to them. So its not a BAD thing that men are sexually inclined, its only bad when they trick women into believing this is not true of them and that women have “nothing to lose” by being sexually free.
In fact, I believe one of the many reasons men in civilized societies are so willing to marry and date and be in monogamous relationships is MOSTLY b/c (1) sex for the average man is NOT easy to come by and (2) b/c of their desires/need for sex having a steady partner will usually guarantee some form of consistent sexual intimacy for him. Of course not the only reason, but I think a lot of women underestimate how much sex plays a role in the average males life. Also not saying that all men are out bedding women, but they think about it and desire it more than we like to admit as women.
Most men despite desiring sex naturally, cannot just get sex as easily as a woman could – why do you think that is? B/C maybe men are not as picky or withholding from sex b/c it’s a basic natural desire/need for them? Sex for women unlike men is not hard to come by for that very reason. Women are not as inclined to have such a natural desire for sex, THUS why women are SOCIALIZED to loosen the reigns on their sexual boundaries, so that men can benefit and fulfill their basic needs and desires for sex when they want/need it.
At the end of the day ALL men have a basic desire and need for sexual release – be them nice or jerks. My 86 year old grandfather (per my grandmother) is still trying to get it from my grandmother and the poor man can’t do anything with it for God’s sakes!
That’s when I realized after she told me this, that for men sexual desires starts very early and never ends. LOL
most women have a natural desire and need for emotional connection and partnership with a male they deem worthy of her sexually just as men have a natural desire for sexual intimacy with an attractive woman (whether they act on it or not). In the end, if played right, there can be a nice balance, but most of the time its women doing more of the sacrificing than the men b/c of “new age thinking” and re-socializing of femininity and womanhood to benefit males.
Lol, Neecy, let’s just say I have a very natural desire for sex. I am not asexual.
But, really, are you saying women don’t have a natural desire for sex? Biology disagrees with that. People don’t exist because of women’s desire for partnership.
Neecy,
Just a couple of facts:
Women (and teen girls) masturbate, too. Oh, they sure do!
Men can’t get sex as easily because women are socialized not to “give in” just like that, not because of some sort of biological mechanism.
It is natural for women, too, to be sexually stimulated by the opposite (or the same) sex. Some women are quite visual. Some prefer other stimulants. But it’s there.
Women are not as inclined to have such a natural desire for sex, THUS why women are SOCIALIZED to loosen the reigns on their sexual boundaries,
No, it was quite the opposite. Women are socialized to “tighten” their sexual boundaries by learning that “good girls don’t do it”, or at least not as much as boys. That is a learner behavior. Women are inclined to have such a natural desire for sex, and that’s one of the main reasons they were guarded, locked up in houses, removed from public, taught that sex was bad etc. in male dominant society. None of it would be necessary if women naturally had no desire to have sex.
MIRA,
I’ve read your responses to this topic and let’s just save ourselves the bandwidth and agree to disagree mmkay? I want to be respected as a WOMAN and a human being – yes. I want men to know that yes, there is going to me more to the equation with me than just my vagina or bedding me for “casual sex”. B/C we live in a male dominated world and society its always my mission as a woman to protect by best interests as a woman and individual FIRST. And b/c it’s a world dominated and run by men for the most part, the agendas set forth will always benefit men FIRST and FOREMOST. That’s just how it is. AS a woman its our job to KNOW this, UNDERSTAND IT and try to make the best we can of it for ourselves b/c believe me men in general will do what women allow them to do and get away with. WHY? B/C its human nature for people to want to look out for their desires and needs first and foremost – yes like women who refuse to succumb to the “new age philosophy” of casual/free sex being liberating for women. I call BS. Its called human nature and not a power struggle as you suggested.
Its also in my best interest to understand the psychological way a typical male thinks as to better position myself as woman to have the most successful and meaningful relationships with men. As with anything in life, the more knowledgeable and aware you are of things, people and places, the better equipped you are to understand how to navigate to make the best most meaningful outcomes of any situation. Going in blindly or in denial does’t really serve to put anyone in a position of a successful outcome. Some women don’t believe in that, and that’s just fine and dandy with me. its every woman’s life and she’s gotta live it on her on account. If you see that as me presenting a “power struggle” against men, then that only speaks to the different philosophies we have as women. Plainly put, there is no “power struggle” if a woman wants to hold onto her femininity and womanhood and not give into simple carnal male desires so easily and wants to balance his carnal desires to make t work for herself. It is what it is.
The real power struggles exist when you have feminist women telling women to forsake her womanhood and femininity to “do what the boys do” B/C a woman is no different than a man. THAT’S the real power struggle if you must know the truth. When a woman doesn’t want to be acknowledged for being a woman and the virtues of such to blend it in with men. THAT’S the power struggle.
Not a woman saying bring balance to the relationships wit men by understanding how they think and how to balance that out with what they need and what you need as a woman. THAT is not a power struggle at all.
I just cant get with this thinking that oooh men and women need to just stop having power struggles and recognize we are basically the same. We’re not!
Oh one last thing, no I do not even agree that male and female animals are the same when it comes to sex. NOT.AT.ALL. There is a lot of data that suggests the opposite is true. But b/c I don’t want to have to go and dig up further proof that suggests that they are very different I will just say that we will have to agree to disagree on that as well.
ALEE said:
But, really, are you saying women don’t have a natural desire for sex? Biology disagrees with that. People don’t exist because of women’s desire for partnership.
NEECY:
Oooh Alee did you not read my lustful confessions in my first post?? LOL. Trust and believe I am living proof that women have lustful sexual desires – quite often in fact. But not on the level that most men would in that we would go out and try to sex up as many hot guys as possible to fulfill that urge. Ultimately my female sensibilities will keep me and most other horny women from “sleeping” around.
The argument is not that women do not lust and have sexual desires – God knows I do. And in fact the more I keep myself from having casual sex with men the more I crave it. But the reality is, most women’s female sensibilities kick in and they either (a) masturbate/vibrate/view porn (this is what I do to release my urges as opposed to having casual sex) (b) have a committed partner in which they are in a relationship with whom they trust to act out these sexual desires. And then some women just screw whomever to fulfill that urge. All I am saying is ultimately what men and women want is not always parallel.
Neecy,
Sure we can agree to disagree on personal opinions, that goes without saying. Of course you should do whatever you think it’s best, to protect yourself and live your life whatever you want.
But I just have to correct you on some facts, particularly those that deal with anthropology. We can’t “agree to disagree” here, because these things are not our personal opinions. For example, we can’t “agree to disagree” about whether women masturbate, when it’s proven that they do.
And b/c it’s a world dominated and run by men for the most part, the agendas set forth will always benefit men FIRST and FOREMOST. That’s just how it is. AS a woman its our job to KNOW this, UNDERSTAND IT and try to make the best we can of it for ourselves b/c believe me men in general will do what women allow them to do and get away with.
I agree with this to an extend (male privilege is still going strong), and I’m all for fighting for female rights. I just fail to see how playing their own (male) game (namely, buying into double standards) will help women in general. But it’s not just their fault: as long as women continue to play by the virgin vs whore dichotomy, NO woman, virginal or not, promiscuous or not, will be respected. Women need to learn to be united, and not to hate on each other because of different sexual choices. Only men benefit here.
Plainly put, there is no “power struggle” if a woman wants to hold onto her femininity and womanhood and not give into simple carnal male desires so easily and wants to balance his carnal desires to make t work for herself. It is what it is.
I didn’t mean on that when I said you believe in power struggle. I meant that you seem to think that any man, even the one a woman wants to have relationship with and fall in love, is a potential enemy. The one who needs to be tricked and defeated because unless you do that, he’ll do it to you. I sure wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with a man who I need to “tame” or trick, or where I need to win.
When a woman doesn’t want to be acknowledged for being a woman and the virtues of such to blend it in with men. THAT’S the power struggle.
Well, I don’t know about you, but I am happy to be a woman, and I sure don’t want to blend in with men. I consider myself feminine and I sure don’t want to be a guy. My sexuality is part of it.
I just cant get with this thinking that oooh men and women need to just stop having power struggles and recognize we are basically the same. We’re not!
Men and women have their differences. Huge ones. But the thing is, most of them aren’t based in biology. It’s a learned behavior.
Oh one last thing, no I do not even agree that male and female animals are the same when it comes to sex.
I never said they were the same. I said they both have sexual drives. Sexual behavior varies from species to species (I mean, there are species where only male cares for the offspring while female goes to mate with more males), but female animals go into heat and when they are in the heat… You get the idea.
Neecy,
“Oooh Alee did you not read my lustful confessions in my first post?? LOL.”
I did. But it seemed like you were going back on what you said in your later comments. Good thing you clarified because I was thinking, “Huh? Women don’t have a sexual drive? Is she for serious?”
“All I am saying is ultimately what men and women want is not always parallel.”
Well, I’ll agree with that one.
Bunny,
And excess testosterone, perhaps.
Really? After all your comments attempting to chastise me for my attitude to your take on sex you actually believe that because you have less testosterone you are somehow wiser and more intelligent? Haha! I mean, I’ve heard some whoppers from misogynists about women, but dang you sure do seem intent on putting them to shame! ; )
But that aside, I notice Mira (30-something, married) also agrees with me in many respects, and so does Alee. And keep in mind that this blog is NOT — no matter how much you might want it to be to suit your arguments — a microcosm of the real world. Neither age, nor gender, nor race guarantee that you “know something”, even if they indicate a predisposition. I make this same mistake with regards to Faith, assuming she’d know better than to engage in bigotry (but doesn’t, apparently, if her blog post is any indication — more on that later).
That said, I’d actually wager I’ve had more casual, serious, and extreme dating experience than you, or Faith, or many others even older. Based solely on your responses and your admitted stances on the issue. You don’t go out there and date, apparently, or have sex, or do anything but attempt to protect yourself from whatever it is you fear about men.
Meanwhile I’ve actually been to the School of Hard Knocks when it comes to dating, sex, and relationships with the opposite sex, and while the School of Hard Knocks isn’t a good indication of how smart I was, oooo did I learn!
Yet it wasn’t the same lesson you, or Faith learned. It was a lesson of believing in myself and trusting others when they had earned it. It was a lesson of compassion but also of being assertive. It was a lesson in the style of Erica Jong, who said, “Do you want me to tell you something really subversive? Love is everything it’s cracked up to be. That’s why people are so cynical about it… It really is worth fighting for, being brave for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don’t risk everything, you risk even more.” — How to Save Your Own Life, by Erica Jong
Call me young, call me naive, call me whatever you want, even though it isn’t true, because in the end I will know you to be exactly the things you call other people who aren’t as bitter or jaded about this as you.
Neecy,
I just cant get with this thinking that oooh men and women need to… recognize we are basically the same. We’re not!
Funny, that sounds almost exactly like what racists, misogynists, anti-Semites, and many other bigots say about us. Yet the truth is we ARE all the same; we’re all human and trying to shove us into little boxes doesn’t make it any less true.
Or do you really believe that ish spouted by some men who denied women the right to vote, access to education, sexual freedom, and political office because they were different?
Because if you do, that’s your right too. But just remember that a long time ago, someone fought so you could choose.
Zek,
“Mira (30
-something, married)”Fixed.
‘ “Do you want me to tell you something really subversive? Love is everything it’s cracked up to be. That’s why people are so cynical about it… It really is worth fighting for, being brave for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don’t risk everything, you risk even more.” — How to Save Your Own Life, by Erica Jong’
That’s some interesting stuff. I may need to look this/her up.
But take it down a notch, please and thank you. We’re all friends here.
Wait, really? Maybe I transfigured almost 30 into 30-something in my head. I know Mira you recently had a birthday, but I forget your actual age now. Sorry about that!
Alee,
My apologies. Sometimes I get too worked up over what other people online have to say that I find offensive.
Gotta remember it’s just words =)
And yeah, definitely look up Erica Jong, she’s got a lot of interesting stuff. Her daughter too, who talks about her difficulties with the “sexually liberated” model her mother espoused during 2nd wave Feminism. Both of them have really interesting things to say regarding the issue, albeit from different sides.
“Mira (30-something, married)”
Fixed.
lol! I was going to comment on that.
MIRA,
Actually I didn’t say women didn’t masturbate. I, my friends (mainly the ones who have chosen no casual sex) do quite often. I said I am not sure that teenage girls masturbate or think about sex on the same level as teenage boys entering puberty. And then I end with “I could be wrong”. I know in my early and late teens the only reason I or my female friends even considered sex was not really because we “had a burning desire to get laid” but rather b/c we often felt that is what a girl does when she is with a guy she likes. This is very different from an average teenage boy who masturbates furiously b/c his hormones have gone haywire and that he is so horny he can’t help himself.
Girls have heartthrobs and boys have sex symbols. Its clear as day that the way sex is viewed by boys/girls and men/women is sooo different very early on. When girls fantasize about heartthrobs as teenagers its usually not to have sex with him. She NATURALLY wants to fantasize that he is her b/f or he is WITH HER (as in a relationship – i.e that need for connection) or sees her as the apple of his eyes. When a teen male has a female sex symbol he likes its USUALLY very sexually charged. He wants to see her naked, and be with her sexually. Now this is not all the time but in most cases this is what teenage boys feel when they start thinking about sex symbols. So I guess yes, I am saying that as teens I believe sex for teenage girls is more so a way to connect with a guy (in their minds) as opposed to her needing to fulfill her haywire sexual urges due to hormones gone wild like a typical teen male experiences.
Regarding women and how they hold each other accountable. In a perfect world women wouldn’t be so hard on each other for their sexual choices b/c the consequences of either choice wouldn’t be present. But there are consequences to many sexual choices women make today. But herein lies the power struggle. The women who want to not just relate to men by their simple natural basic needs (sex) and cause more deeper connections with men other than her vagina, & the women who believe female empowerment solely lies in her vagina and giving it to as many men as possible to prove “she’s a independent woman” . And these days the latter is winning and its fugging up male and female relationships as a whole. Women who want to retain their true femininity and womanhood to appeal to the other desires in men (to protect, uplift, commit, be loyal,) these days are finding it difficult trying to navigate in a society where many women have no sexual boundaries and are committing themselves to fulfill the most easiest basic needs of men – sex. This creates an imbalance in male/female dichotomies whether people want to believe it or not. b/C the more that men realize they have a plethora of women willing to simply give into their carnal desires for sex without even first having to prove himself worthy of her intimately, the less men will feel the need to partner up, protect, be loyal and commit. So b/c we don’t live in a vacuum, yes you will constantly have women playing tug of war with their sexuality on each end of the spectrum.
YOU SAID: meant that you seem to think that any man, even the one a woman wants to have relationship with and fall in love, is a potential enemy. The one who needs to be tricked and defeated because unless you do that, he’ll do it to you. I sure wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with a man who I need to “tame” or trick, or where I need to win.
ME:
“tricked”, “defeated”, “enemy” HUH? Where did I ever say men were the enemy who need to be tricked and defeated????? Please quote. If you mean that me pointing out that in a male dominated society men will always go for what their needs and desires are FIRST and FOREMOST and women need to be able to balance a man’s natural desires and her natural desires to work ALSO on her behalf is saying men are the enemy than I have nothing more to say. Please avoid using straw man arguments with me bc I will request you QUOTE and prove every single example of what you claim I am saying.
(Somewhat off topic; will continue in the Clouds if necessary)
I read one or two Jong’s books when I was a teen. They were seen as “controversial”, but I found them quite mellow. Maybe I didn’t get them.
Oh Zek, way to misread…
I mean that 20-something men are more likely to have a lot more testosterone than men in an older cohort… that is biological… and fatherhood is also known to decrease testosterone… and the older a man is, the more likely it is that he has produced children.
So, a 20-something single childless male waxing poetic about casual sex on a blog is not as likely to have the same drive when he’s 35… and probably will find himself thinking very differently if he’s the father of a daughter in particular.
And he’s probably even less likely at 45 to hold fast to his 20-something single male beliefs… and especially if he has a daughter who’s now a teenager or college student and is around, well, 20-something single men with high testosterone levels!
It reminds me of one of my husband’s friends (late 30s) who got a midnight call from an unknown number. He is single, never married, no kids. We joked with him that he needed to answer and get back home (an hour away) because he could “get lucky.”
His answer? “You know, if I was 20-something, maybe. But now? Not even worth it. Too long of a drive and I’m too tired. Plus, I’m enjoying being here this weekend with my nieces and nephews.”
And I said to myself, good for him. Perhaps casual sex was never his thing or he got burned out on it and realized there was a lot more worthy things to worry about… I’m glad biology works that way to “settle” men down after a while.
That said, I’d actually wager I’ve had more casual, serious, and extreme dating experience than you, or Faith, or many others even older.
Seriously doubt that… really seriously doubt that…
Well, except for the extreme part… and if extreme means being kicked out of someone’s bed at 4:30 a.m. after casual sex, well, I don’t really think I missed much at all! So yes, I grant that you’ve had more extreme dating experience than I have. And I’m VERY thankful for that fact!
Meanwhile I’ve actually been to the School of Hard Knocks when it comes to dating, sex, and relationships with the opposite sex, and while the School of Hard Knocks isn’t a good indication of how smart I was, oooo did I learn!
The School of Hard Knocks is way overrated, but I’m glad you enjoyed it! Glad I missed out on that part… and we wonder why people have so much baggage that they carry into their relationships…
Zek,
I’m going to keep it simple. Men and women are different. There are biological & physical differences that prove this. Women physical carry and give birth to human beings. Men don’t. Men have penises that protrude from their bodies – women don’t. Women have boobies. Men have nipples –okay okay Moobs is a whole other topic altogether. LOL No its not on the same level as race. You cannot say that me pointing out the differences in male/female both physically, mentally and biologically is the same as racists saying that race makes people different. One has scientific biological data to prove its realiability and the other …doesn’t. Race *is* a social construct b/c there is no real scientific or biological proof other than physical appearances that make people different. MEN/WOMEN, MALE/FEMALE that is the only reason we exist- b/c of those differences.
last, anytime a man tries to convince women that casual/free sex is beneficial to her, that men need “emotional connections” to women through sex and women “withholding” sex is “lame” then yes, sorry I have to throw in my ole 2 cents. Its one thing for you to say “I, ZEK must have an emotional connection with a woman which comes in the form of sex” but when you throw out a premise that men need emotional connections to be with a woman sexually I have a prob with that when its biologically proven that men are wired to desire sex naturally without any emotional ties or commitments to women
And yes this is coming from a woman in her 30′s who has experienced both sides of the coin.
All I am saying is, this whole new spin on men and sex you have pointed out IMO is not healthy for any woman to adopt. Its almost trickery IMO. Making women think that most males connect emotionally to women through sex is not true in most cases and is very dangerous for naïve women or girls to believe. Its usually the opposite and anyone who studies and understands the male psyche will tell you this – yes actual people who have PHD’s. Like I said, it may be different for you ZEK, but please don’t present yourself as the spokesperson for most males b/c its common knowledge that sex is a very simple non complex way a man expresses or gets a release.
You put it out there ZEK, don’t expect every woman to just sit quietly and agree and not challenge what YOU decided to put out there publicly for discussion.
Bunny,
No, I read you right. It just isn’t something that you’re proud of.
And again, prove that testosterone makes men unable to think rationally about sex, dating, or relationships? Because I’d LOVE to hear that one =P
Meanwhile, does this mean I can tell you not to operate heavy machinery when you’re on your period? Or wait… no, because that’d be sexist! (Can you see the similarity yet? Hopefully.)
Yet I find it funny you still think I’m saying people should have casual sex. I’ve only been saying people should have when they want to. Please read for comprehension =)
The School of Hard Knocks is way overrated
Says the girl who didn’t learn anything? But I do notice that you mention baggage because your response to my post earlier (and Faith’s) seems to indicate that ya’ll bring a lot of baggage to the table when discussing these issues. And if that’s your vast experience, then I feel sorry for you =/
But not that sorry, since you seem to believe a lot of sexist ish.
Neecy,
I have no problem with my views being challenged. If you disagree, cool beans, hot rice, see ya later alligator.
But when you use bigotry and ignorance to prove your points, then I feel compelled to respond in kind. You said, You cannot say that me pointing out the differences in male/female both physically, mentally and biologically is the same as racists saying that race makes people different. One has scientific biological data to prove its realiability and the other …doesn’t.
Really? Because you’re using the EXACT same reasoning as racist AND misogynists to justify their bigotry and prejudice. If you don’t see that, then you need to check yourself because ignorance is bad for your health.
And since you’re not a scientist, nor even an expert in the field, I guess I shouldn’t expect you to understand how what you’re saying is so irrational and wrong, but so it goes.
anyone who studies and understands the male psyche will tell you this
You mean you? Are you more of an expert on the male psyche than me, or other actual males? Haha, does that mean I can say because I’m Jewish I know what it’s like to be Black in America?
Seriously, you need to reread what you’ve written and see how terribly offensive it is.
And as for my post being “trickery” you sound like Faith’s blog. But if you believe that, go ahead, even though it’s not trickery to tell you what men feel. That you’ve met some bad men who’ve used you, I’m sorry, but they aren’t representative of men in general, and it’s unfair to hold them up as such.
And if that’s your vast experience, then I feel sorry for you
Snort. Okay, if that makes you feel good to feel sorry for me, go on ahead!
I’m taking my sorry sad self home from work to have dinner and again enjoy the company of the kindest, most respectful, most caring and compassionate man I’ve ever met in my life, outside of my daddy. Oh, my sorry sad life indeed… sob…
Neecy,
All I am saying is, this whole new spin on men and sex you have pointed out IMO is not healthy for any woman to adopt. Its almost trickery IMO. Making women think that most males connect emotionally to women through sex is not true in most cases and is very dangerous for naïve women or girls to believe. Its usually the opposite and anyone who studies and understands the male psyche will tell you this – yes actual people who have PHD’s. Like I said, it may be different for you ZEK, but please don’t present yourself as the spokesperson for most males b/c its common knowledge that sex is a very simple non complex way a man expresses or gets a release.
Yep. As I said plenty of times, an individual person can have his opinions on this topic. If Zek himself bonds emotionally through casual sex, I believe him and great for him.
But to act as if women should just trust that all men feel like that and that they all need to just throw caution to the wind when it comes to having sex for some kind of organic, life-affirming, progressive experience… or otherwise, she’s lame and hasn’t lived and he feels sorry for her? Pssshhhhhh….
Hipster misogyny indeed…
I said I am not sure that teenage girls masturbate or think about sex on the same level as teenage boys entering puberty.
Then I’m sorry. I didn’t get what you were saying. But teen girls do masturbate and have pure sexual thoughts. The rate of masturbation is lower than for the boys, but that doesn’t mean it’s because they don’t have strong urges.
First of all, girls are raised not to think about masturbating. Every single woman I know used to think she was the only girl in the world who does that. I know I was. Some felt shame and thought they were dirty for doing it, but were unable to stop.
Second of all, many girls – heck, many WOMEN – don’t know how to please themselves. Especially teen, virgin girls. Due to (heterosexual) male dominated society, sex is often equated with penetration, which we all know isn’t true. A woman doesn’t need penetration to masturbate, but many teen girls have no clue. They are unfamiliar with their own bodies!
These two reasons are a better explanation on why there are less girls who masturbate than the guys than it is “less sexual urge”.
Now, the hearthrobs vs sex symbols. I was actually going to blog about it, but I want to cover Amy Winehouse’s debacle in Belgrade.
I don’t know about your country, but here, the term “sex symbol” is used for men, too. “Robert Pattinson is a today’s teen sex symbol”, they say.
I agree female teen fantasies go into more complex directions than the straightforward “I want to do” him, but there are two things to keep in mind:
- Many teen girls DO say things like “I want to do him”. A friend of mine runs a tumblr blog with Josh Hartnett’s pictures, and let’s just say that comments written by teen girls are quite sexual. But true, many mention marriage and relationship, often in a form of: “You’re so sexy, marry me now”. I don’t think it’s a romantic comment that reveals a girl’s wish for long term relationship. Your mileage may vary on this, though.
- Teen girls do have celebrity fantasies that are less straightforward (dare to say, complex), but that doesn’t make them any less sexual.
The thing is, you seem to assume this is natural for women, while it’s cultural; never underestimate the power of nurture! By the time a woman is in her teens she is so indoctrinated with double standard that she can’t have a pure sexual thought without feeling guilty about it! There’s nothing natural about it!
The women who want to not just relate to men by their simple natural basic needs (sex) and cause more deeper connections with men other than her vagina, & the women who believe female empowerment solely lies in her vagina and giving it to as many men as possible to prove “she’s a independent woman” .
No, I meant that both of those groups of women often make mistake about seeing their vagina as a source of empowerment. Those who withhold sex to make men respect them also see their vagina as a source of power. Both of these approaches are wrong, imo.
Women who want to retain their true femininity and womanhood to appeal to the other desires in men (to protect, uplift, commit, be loyal,) these days are finding it difficult trying to navigate in a society where many women have no sexual boundaries and are committing themselves to fulfill the most easiest basic needs of men – sex.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to imply that women who “have no sexual boundaries” (not that it’s easy to have a person without boundaries) don’t have their true femininity and womanhood, or that they don’t want to be loved or protected?
WHY would sexual behavior determine the way someone respects you?
“tricked”, “defeated”, “enemy” HUH? Where did I ever say men were the enemy who need to be tricked and defeated????? Please quote.
You didn’t use those words, but it is the vibe I’m getting: it’s either us or them, ladies; we must do whatever takes to win here and gain/keep power. It’s honestly what I’m getting in your posts: that men, even the one you want to be with, is a potential source of trouble and someone who wants to have power over you (general you).
ZEK
LOL I knew it was a matter of time before the “you got used by men and that’s why you feel this way” meme would come out. Frankly Zek, I cannot even comment to you anymore. You don’t get it. You said a woman withholding from sex is lame and that men need emotional connections to women through sex. Its just laughable and sad to think you believe those thoughts and ideas of yours would go without question. I guess its that whole liberal I can think and do no wrong thing some men have. Oh well. You’ll soon learn that there are plenty people in the world who won’t take what some liberal minded guy says for face value without challenging it. if you can’t handle it PLEASE don’t write blog posts on topics. its that simple.
Oh and feel free to show me how “irrational” I am on the FACT that race is more a social construct than biological one.
Its been said before for decades, centuries, years, days, hours minutes AND SECONDS. SEX and men are not complicated. Men want it and will do whatever they can to convince women to give it to them freely. A perfect example is YOUR BLOG POST on the topic.
Off to lunch!
Neecy,
Oy vey.
Misquoting me when the words I said are readily available in the comment section is… well, just kinda dumb. I said, “withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man in a society with pretty open access to birth control and contraceptives seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame.”
Why? Because first it demonstrates that the woman cares only for a power struggle, and sees the man as an object to be “snatched”, which is just like how men objectify women (albeit for different ends). Secondly, because it denies yourself sex when you may, in fact, actually want it while banking that the relationship will work out this way. But there’s no guarantee that it will.
And that many men use physical intimacy to get emotionally closer is TRUE. Even if you want to snort like a pig and pretend that it isn’t ; )
Oh and feel free to show me how “irrational” I am on the FACT that race is more a social construct than biological one.
I never said race wasn’t a social construct. I’m merely employing your own irrationality against you to show you what it justifies. Read my blog, and see what I’ve actually written on the issue. Race IS a social construct as it used nowadays, but more on point: gender differences as you define them are simply not true. Women want sex just like men do, but culture makes us regulate and change how we approach it. You can deny this, as you have done, but the real scientists in the room (Alee, Mira, and myself) would be more than happy (or perhaps I should speak only for myself) to correct you =)
Its been said before for decades, centuries, years, days, hours minutes AND SECONDS. SEX and men are not complicated. Men want it and will do whatever they can to convince women to give it to them freely.
Again, I’m sorry this has been your experience, but nonetheless enjoy your lunch and try not be so sexist, okay? Because frankly I worry for your husband and sons with an attitude like that more than you or Bunny or Faith worry about my future daughters.
Zek is a DBR plain and simple. I advocate for healthy relationships and love for women in committed relationships, not fake nice guys who excuse and deny their promotion of cheap, easy disposable sex. He can claim to mean whatever he likes, but the FACT remains he is POISON TO ALL WOMEN.
AVOID AT ALL COSTS ladies. For the sake of your virtue, not being jaded about future men, your health and peace of mind.
Hahahaha!! A poison, huh? Yes, I’m like cyanide! I’m all about fooling women into give up the snatch as a secret plot to overthrow the world along with the rest of my Jewish brethren.
Can you tell I’m being sarcastic? Faith, you need to change your name to Rage, because you sound like an angry bitter spinster. But hey! If misandry works for you, then by all means keep preaching your prejudice. As for me, I’ll pass on the vitriolics.
Sorry Alee, but your blog has begun to attract some VERY angry girls. And I’m not about having rational discussions with people who are incapable of them.
Thanks for asking me to guest-post, but I think that the vocal minority are just not ready to let go of their negative emotions & experiences. In meantime though, keep up the posts because I’ll still read and lurk =)
Hey everyone, keep it respectful. No need to call names.
And zek no need to imply things about people’s backgrounds…
Correctly identifying toxic people, viewpoints, ideologies and perspectives is simply acknowledging what it is. There’s a greater problem in MIS-IDENTIFYING danger, lest some unsuspecting woman get burned. No one else is required to agree with my opinion just as I am NOT required to agree with any male who encourages women to work against their best interests. A wolf is still a wolf. There’s no animus required – it is simply a clinical evaluation. It is also quite typical for DBR males to claim women are angry when they are being held accountable for their treachery. If one has integrity then they can simply choose to continue along their path. Roaches do NOT LIKE THE LIGHT and scurry from exposure.
Say what you want, but what young women need to hear is what Neecy is saying. Neecy’s message is NOT for Zek or for men. What I have learnt is that we can’t change others, we can only change ourselves. Men will be men and will do what they do. What women need to do is to be aware that what men say and do may not be always congruent with what we want and that is ok. This is where Faith and her blog comes in, it is the DUTY of women to VET HEAVILY the men that they choose to include in their lives.
Should women who want to have casual sex be able to do so? Absolutely go ahead and find men who want to have casual sex. But if I had a daughter I would be sure to let her know the pro and cons and (get ready Alee for another old fashioned saying
) I grew up with the saying “who can’t hear will feel.” And I think there are alot of “feeling” women right now with OOW children, STDS and no solid relationships to show for their actions. What they have been doing is not working!
For those of you who love to read here is a great new blog I found :
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2008/12/13/hookinguprealities/hookups-reflect-the-supply-and-demand-for-sex/
Alee,
I normally wouldn’t, but being called poison and a wolf and a roach (which is really getting anti-Semitic at that point — next are they going to call me a rat??) is kinda the shtick with these girls. They only seem to indulge in angry, bitter bloggings =/
But I would love to know WHY I would seek to lure unsuspecting women to give up their power and just have a bunch of random sex (especially since I never said or advocated for any of those things) when I already have a beautiful and loving girlfriend!
It’s beyond confusing; it’s hilariously offensive.
That said, I’ll stick to my own blog where I can moderate the haters who come around.
Thanks for being cool Alee.
@Faith (and others),
Name-calling only offends people and is not a valid argument. If I allow one person to call another names, then I have to let others do that as well, and the conversation simply devolves into mud-slinging and is no longer productive. Thus it is not allowed and as adults I expect everyone to understand and abide by that guideline.
@zek, I’m disappointed that you would bring someone’s personal life into the discussion. If Bunny would have responded to your “baggage” comment in kind, I wouldn’t fault her for that. As the writer of this post you have a responsibility to make sure the discussion is going smoothly and not attack others for disagreeing with you.
I’m going to bed in a couple of hours but if I wake and find this discussion going on the same lines I’m simply going to delete the offending comments and close the comments section. Please don’t allow that to happen as others might have thoughts to share later on.
Sandy,
About the article you linked. I hate when matters of love and romance are quantified or analyzed as if it’s a real market and a business. I don’t want to see things that way. What happened with honesty, and loyalty? This all thing seem quite dirty. I think it’s disgusting to view personal relationships in marketing terms. Ugh.
But this line was quite memorable:
Remember, we do not blame boys for hooking up whenever and with whomever they can. They are only being true to their nature!
… Are you sure that the article wasn’t a parody?
In any case, I find it sexist and disrespectful to both men and women.
Zek,
I normally wouldn’t, but being called poison and a wolf and a roach (which is really getting anti-Semitic at that point — next are they going to call me a rat??)
Pardon me for asking, but what’s anti-Semitic about being called a wolf and a roach?
I’m against name calling, but I think these women dislike you for being a man, not for being Jewish (I might be mistaken, though).
All in all, I do think it’s possible to discuss or argue without resorting to ad hominem. And isn’t a debate, even a slightly heated one, a good thing? As long as it isn’t disrespectful, of course.
Alee,
Maybe another female post on one night stands, or, simply, male attitudes towards it would be a good thing to do at the moment?
What I find interesting about comments that attack Zek’s post is the fact Zek (the way I understood this post) didn’t really encourage casual sex. Quite the contrary. He only stated what I suspected: that men, at least some of them, don’t enjoy it as much as it’s believed.
So I guess we all focused more on the other part of the post (how men want sex to build intimacy), and we all focused on women and their sexual behavior (and here I’m to blame, too). But ironically, Zek’s point seems to be quite the opposite of what he’s accused: if nothing else, his example proves that there are men who don’t see casual sex as a great thing. It’s another interesting thing in this post. Like I said, my experience confirms this.
Mira,
WHY would sexual behavior determine the way someone respects you? Are you for real in asking this question? I feel a Dr. Phil coming on………………
Mira,
Nazi’s compared Jews to cockroaches. It’s a commons stereotype, often mocked by comedians like Sacha Beren Cohen as Borat.
Alee,
I’m sorry but are you getting mad at me for defending myself from trolls, flamers, and bigots?? They insulted you too, as I saw on Faith’s blog. And you asked me to guest-post. You read this entire post before you published, and I had sent it to you for edits and approval. Yet you told Faith you had “no idea beforehand” what I was to publish.
We disagree often enough, and don’t let our disagreements turn personal, but you’re now letting actual bigots hijack my guest-post on your blog that is supposed to be a lofty existence compared to others?
They claimed I was possibly a rapist, misogynist, naive, dangerous, wolf, cockroach, Nazi propogandist, poison, and more. But when I defend myself against their misreading & misquoting of my guest-post, I am the one you’re disappointed in for bringing up their personal lives? I’d say that’s unfair, because it is, but instead I’ll say it’s just hypocritical to condemn certain kinds of prejudice and not others. It’s hypocritical to promote your blog as a place free from haters, and then allow them to spill over onto your blog and not moderate them.
Frankly, I’m the one who is disappointed as the proprietor you’re not standing behind the writer you asked to post, and doing YOUR part to moderate the discussion instead of blaming me for defending myself against ad hominem attacks in kind!
Which is why I again think it’s best if I don’t comment here and just go back to lurking like I was. And maybe you should take down the post since I’ll be putting up my rebuttal in a moment anyways at my blog.
Are you for real in asking this question?
Yes, I am for real, and I don’t have idea who or what Dr Phil is (not that I care).
I mean, just think for a second. WHY would sexual behavior determine the way someone respects you?
Do you think that people should be judged by their genitalia and what they choose to do with them, or, I don’t know, things such as personality, character, faults and virtues… ?
Zek,
Thank you for your explanation. It’s interesting, because here, the word for cockroach is the same as the slang word for Germans (and people here rarely say Nazis, they say Germans and mean the same thing – which is not ok, but you get the idea). I never learned whether the bug was called after the people or the other way around.
Alee,
If Bunny would have responded to your “baggage” comment in kind, I wouldn’t fault her for that.
I could have, but it wasn’t really worth it…
Plus, when it gets to a point where one is esteeming Schools of Hard Knocks or “extreme dating” and feeling pity for those who haven’t had such “experiences”… well, I think those statements alone simply speak for themselves in terms of absurdity!
I’m happy, I’m loved, I’m cherished and I’m empowered by my choices. That’s all that matters to me.
(Hubby is enjoying this topic too… no he’s not reading all of the comments, but just some of the assertions being made. He’s getting a kick out of it. )
Wow, the comments really have grown since I was last here lol. I guess it wasn’t too late after all.
@ Sherry, I didn’t really want to come across as chastising. Plus, the comment wasn’t directed just at you as Zek and many others I have encountered on the web and IRL have made similar comments (some friends and close family said to my face as well). I just wanted to put out there that because I decided to wait until marriage, I want to be respected just like everyone else who decided not to wait or not wait as long as I do. I am not naive or “lame”, and I have personal reasons why I decide to wait until marriage. Nothing to do with mind games or anything sinister like that.
Back to topic:
I just can’t get down with this logic that men are these beasts who want sex all the time. I actually think this type of thinking (the “boys will be boys mentality”) is why so many young men out there are NOT respecting their bodies nor respecting the women with whom they interact. If we keep saying that this is how young men behave, then of course they are going to grow up thinking that this is what is expected of them.
I actually think this type of thinking (the “boys will be boys mentality”) is why so many young men out there are NOT respecting their bodies nor respecting the women with whom they interact.
Exactly. They are encouraged to be promiscuous, and are taught that it’s in their nature, while it might not be so. (I mean, each person is different). There are many young men who do it because of societal pressure, and not jut peer pressure, but the whole society. They are bombarded with these messages of “manliness” since they were infants. Similarly, girls are bombarded with an opposite message.
THAT and not “nature” is what make men and women behave differently.
Mira, Golden,
Your comments are why I still blog =)
Be sure to respond to my response there.
Bunny,
I’m sure your husband is getting a kick out of it. But probably not as big of a laugh as my girlfriend. She often tells me about the “Black female empowerment” blogs and how angry all the women there are ; )
Mira,
Silly me! Excuse me for being redundant. Carry on!
Thanks Sandy!! I think you have hit the nail on the head with it. Its time for women with standards, values and morals & with a slice of their femininity in tact to start going back to the basics with men and start vetting for more quality relationships.
I have clearly stated that i don’t hold it against men for being men, but in knowing how they are as beings, its up to women to take charge on how we want to be treated in interactions with males. Men will adapt. If we competely leave it up to men to determine what is “best for us as women” you better believe their needs are always going to come FIRST. And those needs are not always going to be in the best interests of women.
Believe it or not, a lot of men while enjoying the freedom and easy access to sex today by many “liberated women” do want women to be a challenge to them.
its like kids. Most child therapists will tell you that although kids want their independance and want to do whatever they want, at the same token they crave and really like having structure. . Its makes thier lives less complicated. Its no different for most men. Many will have sex with women if women let them, but many of those same men would prefer women to make them work for their affections. Men like the chase and challenge. Nowadays that is so lost in feminist rhetoric about how women can do what men do and not have boundaries or be “restricted” that men have forgotton what it slike to actually have to work for a womans affections and prove himself worthy of her sexual intimacy – or worthy of her PERIOD.
Bunny,
I don’t think you and the hubby are laughing as hard as i was when i read this blog post and the idea that all women would actually buy into it. Now that is what’s hilarious!
i’m done.
Here’s the link to my post regarding the topic, and it includes my reblog of this post so we can stop cluttering Alee’s blog with drama. (I’m looking at the haters here in the building.) Feel free to drop by, and we can continue the discussion with appropriately moderated comments.
Or not =)
Sandy,
Silly me! Excuse me for being redundant. Carry on!
What do you mean by this?
I wouldn’t automatic go to anti Semitism just by saying cockroach, In southern African is well known that it’s the term that the Hutu used for the Tutsi. It’s why there were some controversy about that when a ANC politician referred to whites by that.
And wow this one blew up over night.
Zek,
‘You read this entire post before you published, and I had sent it to you for edits and approval. Yet you told Faith you had “no idea beforehand” what I was to publish.’
Yes, before I saw it. I didn’t know what you were going to write in the post beforehand because I’m not in your head. But obviously I knew what was in it when I edited/published since… I edited/published it. I think Faith understands what I meant when I said that, since she’s also a blogger.
“…when I defend myself against their misreading & misquoting of my guest-post, I am the one you’re disappointed in for bringing up their personal lives?”
As far as I read, Bunny never attacked you. She disagreed with your comments, and she was a bit sarcastic about it. But she didn’t attack your person. However, you went too far in your response to her and said that she appears to have baggage that is affecting her judgment. That’s a personal attack.
But what I find really funny is that you’re claiming that I’m giving others a pass and letting them insult you on my blog.
And Faith is claiming on her blog that I’m protecting you and letting you insult others on my blog.
Could it be that you’re both not seeing that I’m not “taking sides” — I’m just allowing others to have their say, but also saying that name-calling, ad hominems, and other manner of personal attacks will not be allowed? Did I not tell Faith and everyone this same thing? Or did I only say that to you? I’m pretty sure people understood my response was for everyone since I said “everyone” and “others”.
“I’m the one who is disappointed as the proprietor you’re not …doing YOUR part to moderate the discussion instead of blaming me for defending myself against ad hominem attacks in kind!”
Am I not moderating right now? Have I not been moderating since the beginning of this debate? Did I not say that the discussion will not continue the way that it was going? Please tell me, zek, how I am failing to moderate? I need to eat/sleep too.
A personal note:
As a writer/blogger, lots of people disagree with me. I expect that; it’s part of the territory, especially since I write about social issues. If you really think the names you’ve been called here are so terrible, you haven’t heard the names I’ve been called. Just because I don’t print them/they’re not said in the comments, doesn’t mean I don’t understand what it’s like to have people call me names and disagree with me.
But I can’t get mad at all of these people and start trashing them too. It doesn’t make me feel like I’ve done good because I “got them back”. At some point you have to be the person that says, “I’m not going to call you names, imply things about your character, and drag your name through the mud… like you’ve done to me.” Especially since you’re the writer/blogger — everyone is going to be looking at you. Since you provided the platform, you should expect that everyone is not going to agree with you, and some will disagree vehemently. If you respond in kind, people are going to focus on the fact that you allowed others to drag you down to their level… beneath their level. And just for your own sake, be the adult, even if no one else is.
Everyone,
If you would like me to switch to approving every single comment that comes into the blog, I can do that.
I currently allow regular commenters to comment freely and don’t approve comments manually because:
(a) it can be annoying to have to wait for your comment to appear
(b) it slows down discussion; people have to work on my schedule of when I have time to approve comments
(c) I trust that people who I’ve initially approved can conduct themselves appropriately and I don’t have to watch them like a hawk
But if you think that having all comments approved first would be a better set up, let me know.
Mira,
“Maybe another female post on one night stands, or, simply, male attitudes towards it would be a good thing to do at the moment?”
That would be fine. Are you offering to write it?
“ironically, Zek’s point seems to be quite the opposite of what he’s accused: if nothing else, his example proves that there are men who don’t see casual sex as a great thing. It’s another interesting thing in this post. Like I said, my experience confirms this.”
Yes!
That’s what I’d thought too when I initially read it. I didn’t think it was harmful at all, even though when reading the comments and Faith’s response later on I could see how someone would view it that way.
I didn’t see his post as telling women, “Do it, do it!” when it comes to casual sex. He was just saying that this is how [some] men look at intimacy in a relationship, in case you didn’t know that, it isn’t always because they’re just looking to bed you.
It’s interesting how so many interpretations can come of a single writing. But it’s happened plenty of times before so I’m not too surprised.
That’s what I’d thought too when I initially read it. I didn’t think it was harmful at all, even though when reading the comments and Faith’s response later on I could see how someone would view it that way.
I didn’t see his post as telling women, “Do it, do it!” when it comes to casual sex. He was just saying that this is how [some] men look at intimacy in a relationship, in case you didn’t know that, it isn’t always because they’re just looking to bed you.
Without trying to jump back into the fray too much, I’ll just say this.
When I read the original post, I just kinda smiled and laughed a bit and then moved on. It really didn’t move me enough to comment… plus I know that individuals have different experiences. If what was written was simply one man’s experience and thoughts on casual sex, that’s that. No biggie for me.
I think it fell apart in the comment section though, when statements were then made that came off as value judgments. When one starts saying that other people’s actions are “lame” because they fall outside of one’s personal view, or when one uses his or her personal viewpoint to create a false dichotomy (i.e. equating a woman waiting for sex for her own personal reasons to engaging in a “power struggle”), then the floodgates open.
Because now, it’s no longer, “this is how I feel about my life and my actions.” It’s, “other people who operate outside my value system are doing so for lame reasons and they’d be better off without such ideas.”
In such cases, the other side needs to be told. And if the other side and all of the various legitimate reasons for having an alternative opinion (STDs, potential for bonding) are continually dismissed as little more than silly annoyances, THEN one really opens the floodgates for plenty of criticism.
Often the comments (on any blog or article) are usually worse than the initial posting, and fights start over the comments moreso than the initial statement.
Bunny,
“If what was written was simply one man’s experience and thoughts on casual sex, that’s that. No biggie for me.
I think it fell apart in the comment section though, when statements were then made that came off as value judgments.”
Oh, I can understand that. It just appears that some people were disagreeing with the initial post (in addition to the later comments…).
Bunny,
Except I stated (and this seems to be the comment you’re objecting to) “withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man in a society with pretty open access to birth control and contraceptives seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame.”
Now what is objectionable here? Because to me I see this as reading, quite clearly: women who use sex to manipulate or coerce a man into a relationship against his emotional desires because we think his desire for sex is greater are actually demeaning to men, if not just simply lame people.
Now if you take objection to that, fine and dandy, but can you even see HOW your support of women exhibiting this kind of behavior comes off to 1) me as a man, and 2) men in general as sexist?
Okay, Zek, I’ll bite.
1. You make the assumption that the reason the woman is withholding sex is because she’s trying to “snatch a man.” You also use the terms “manipulate” or “coerce.” All of this ascribes and assume negative motives for a woman choosing to wait, or “withhold sex.” But there was never an acknowledgment that perhaps her choice is not about manipulation, coercion or snatching at all, but about doing what’s best FOR HER and attracting the men that fit HER mindset. So yes, I find that objectionable that a woman’s choice of “waiting” or “withholding” is depicted as an attempt by her to play a power game. Which is why I said, this mindset is just as much an effort to control female sexuality as the mindsets that all women should be virgins (or have just one or two partners) before marriage.
2. We already discussed birth control and contraceptive failures, the fact that women are more prone by anatomy to pick up certain STDs regardless of how much contraception is used and how a growing number of women are dealing with infertility due to STD damage from years ago. Again, those concerns were brushed off by talking about how one can just “get tested,” or how certain STDs eventually go away. Of all reasons mentioned for women to want to wait, these to me are the strongest ones and the ones that should be least ignored and brushed off as mere trifles.
3. And again, for men who do feel women who are making them wait longer than they want for sex are acting objectionably, they can move on to different women. If men are free beings, they don’t have to be coerced into anything… so if they feel a woman is being mainpulative or coercive, they can move on. But the need to then call out said women is the part I don’t get… if one is so respectful of other’s choices, there would not be the need for words like “lame” and “demeaning” to put down a woman’s choice that honestly, has little to do with you. If you don’t like female coercion, don’t be coerced. It’s not that difficult, unless one wants all of womankind to change… otherwise, why be so concerned?
but can you even see HOW your support of women exhibiting this kind of behavior comes off to 1) me as a man, and 2) men in general as sexist?
Honestly, why should I care? You as a man and men in general are strangers. I and other women owe nothing to you or men in general.
If you and other men thought I was sexist, big whoop. I don’t really care.
I met someone with your mindset before in real life and he basically said the same thing to me as you have. I told him to be gone. He got gone. My life moved on and I didn’t miss him one bit. I’m sure he didn’t miss me either. So we’re all happy. What’s the problem again?
Other men thought I was awesome and said they totally understood my viewpoint and felt no sense of coercion at all. I got involved with those men.
So what’s the problem again?
I support women doing what’s best for them and I don’t think women should care what male strangers think about their actions. It never was, and never will be, my goal in life to change myself to fit random men’s belief systems. Nor should it be any woman’s.
Bunny,
Well, you certainly didn’t answer my question it seems.
Read what I wrote — not invent your own scenario and talk about how much better your life was after it. Good for you for having such a wonderful life, but that wasn’t the question. I don’t care if you’re happy as a clam, I asked you to make an important distinction.
Do you not see how it is OFFENSIVE, demeaning and/or lame to manipulate or coerce a man in order to possess — “snatch” — him as if he is an object, one with no control over his sex-drive (and thus withholding sex is effective in getting him)? And further, do you not see how OFFENSIVE it is to imply that women should withhold sex and ONLY be with men who’d respect them merely because they didn’t have sex, without making mention of his other qualities?
Yet, I didn’t tell… anyone they could or could not do it. Just that I don’t approve and I find it wrong for the reasons stated above. You projected that into my comments all on your own.
And notice, I APOLOGIZED if I had come off as making “value judgements” earlier when you chastised me for doing so. I rephrased my statement, clarified it, expanded on it, and your response was derisive (to say the least) at that point I stopped being nice and started being antagonistic.
But the really hypocritical thing is: when I noticed you making value judgements on others for having sex WHEN THEY WANT TO (not casually, not randomly, as you keep attempting to twist my words into meaning) and called you out on it you attempted to wriggle out of it while throwing insults my way.
Frankly, I could call you a bunch of names, and already have, but there’s only one that fits: hypocrite.
*ahem*
Maybe this thread has outlived its usefulness, or at least should be temporary closed.
As soon as people respond to my inquiry above, this thread might be shutting down so we can all cool off.
Alee,
This is a private blog, I thought. Not a magazine, not a newspaper nor a website. The standards you yourself stated for this private blog when you set it up are not being met in this current conversation.
Moreover, being neutral is all well and good in a civil discussion, but this is that no longer. And frankly, if you want to maintain neutrality in the face of bigotry, then I will take it upon myself to rebut and refute all manner of attacks such as scorn, derision, twisting my words, misquoting me, being called poison, a wolf, a cockroach (which is anti-Semitic to boot!), a rapist, a misogynist and other things in kind. I am not trying to be the “bigger person” in your house when my opponents are throwing mud in my face right in front of you while you attempt to remain “neutral”.
And that is why I feel you haven’t been moderating. When you let bigotry pass uncontested, you have given up moderating your blog. (And with regards to Bunny, she did attack me — here and at Faith’s place. But I’m not a baby that needs defending. I just want to be free to respond in kind.)
But that’s my personal feeling, and you might see it differently. You might not think they’re engaging in bigotry, or that letting bigotry pass is okay as long as we don’t call each other names. And if any of those are your standards, then I’ll abide by them when I come to your place. But then I’ll stick to lurking.
And further, do you not see how OFFENSIVE it is to imply that women should withhold sex and ONLY be with men who’d respect them merely because they didn’t have sex, without making mention of his other qualities?
When did I say this? In fact, I said this… but perhaps you missed it.
I don’t want to be with a man who thinks women are sluts and I’ve said many times that I don’t believe in waiting for sex to earn a man’s respect.
And I also said…
Totally agree. If you want to have casual sex, go for it. If you don’t, don’t do it.
So, when again did I make value judgments again?
Or have you lumped all of your detractors into one group and can’t keep comments from various people straight any more?
And nope, to again answer your questions, I don’t find a woman making a choice regarding her own body to ever be offensive… I think I answer your questions just as you ask them, you just don’t like my answers. Oh well.
And Zek?
Here is the exact comment I left at Faith’s blog. Word for word. Tell me where the personal attack is on you that you claim I said. Your name is never mentioned.
Anyone can go to Faith’s post and see the exact same thing, if you don’t believe me.
Hi Faith! Thanks for highlighting my comments. I appreciate your support.
There was one point that I made that might have been misunderstood. I don’t think that young women should be fighting to earn the respect of men who aren’t acting in ways that are worthy of respect. For example, I know that there are men who will try to set up women for failure by trying to have sex with them at a certain early juncture. They’ll start getting touchy-feely on a first date or invite the woman up to his place or walk her to her door and wait around to see if she’ll let him in. If she gives in and they have sex, he’ll decide that she’s not worthy of respect and move on. If she turns him down, he’ll decide that she is worthy of respect and is relationship material, and will then pursue her differently.
However, I wouldn’t want that guy at all. I don’t want women to fight for the respect of men who are trying to set them up to fail by enticing them into casual sex. I would only want the respect of a man who is himself respectable… so a woman’s actions in rejecting casual sex shouldn’t be based on trying to earn respect from a cad, but to protect herself and determine if she’s dating a man with honorable intentions.
I remember getting a first phone call from a man at 10:30 p.m. I let him know that was unacceptable and he said, “Well, now that I know what type of girl you are and what values you have, I’ll act differently.” But as far as I was concerned, he as an adult man in his late 30s should have had the decency and courtesy to call at a much earlier hour, regardless of what values I might have had. He didn’t really know me, but he was testing me to see if I was worthy of his respect. But why should I want that type of man anyway?
That’s what I meant.
Zek,
“This is a private blog, I thought.”
It is, it is my private blog. But I open it up for most people to comment.
“The standards you yourself stated for this private blog when you set it up are not being met in this current conversation.”
Such as?
I wasn’t online when most of the heated discussion took place, so I did what I could to draw it back when I arrived. Sans deleting all of the heated comments, which I’m sure no one, including you, would be happy if I did.
What would you propose I do?
“Moreover, being neutral is all well and good in a civil discussion, but this is that no longer.”
This is not about me trying to be neutral (even though I can see where both sides are coming from). When you have a community of people and want to discuss topics with them, you have to do what you can to make sure people feel comfortable. I do not want this to be a place where people are attacked left and right, and it’s not going to be. And that’s why I’m asking you — what do you think I could “do”? Because you’re obviously not very comfortable and feel attacked.
“When you let bigotry pass uncontested, you have given up moderating your blog.”
What bigotry was that? Serious question; I’d like for you to point out the sections/comments you felt were bigoted. Then tell me what you’d like me to do about them. That’s no promise I will do what you say, but I’ll take it into consideration.
Alee,
Neecy compares men to children here “its like kids… Its no different for most men.”
Faith calls me a wolf and a cockroach in both of her comments, in addition to linking her blog with more slander. (And strange self-promotion. Why couldn’t she just make her arguments in thread?)
Bunny juxtaposes this as my thinking in connection with cavemen, “Well, I think there are more choices out there than the Zeks and the Cavemen.
Honestly, I wouldn’t want a guy who expresses either way of thinking. I don’t want to be with a man who thinks women are sluts and I’ve said many times that I don’t believe in waiting for sex to earn a man’s respect. ” Again, neither of those are my positions, but I like how I’m put into that box.
And then her judging women for having sex when they want to: “Yes, the evil underbelly of the casual sex/hooking up world… and yet, women should just go with their feelings and have sex when they feel right about it… yeah… ”
Bunny attacking me for telling people to have sex when they want, “they don’t fit in your neat and tidy estimation of people should just go with their feelings when they decide to have sex, right?” … “I know I’m beating Zek up a lot here…”
There, evidence to both comments regarding BS, and all that. But I’ve got to go to work so I’ll add more later!
I like your blog Alee and I’d like it to be as it is. To approve everything is just annoying.
Nkosazana,
Thanks for your response.
—
Zek,
“Neecy compares men to children here “its like kids… Its no different for most men.”
I could see why you would think that was bigoted, but in the context of this thread, which is to discuss what men think about casual sex, it technically isn’t.
Neecy is making a comparison which she thinks illustrates men’s attitudes towards sex. I or others might think she could have gotten her point across in a different way, but I can’t go, “No, wrong, sorry, delete.” Because that’s what this thread is about — people’s ideas about men and casual sex.
‘Faith calls me a wolf and a cockroach in both of her comments, in addition to linking her blog with more slander. (And strange self-promotion. Why couldn’t she just make her arguments in thread?)’
I saw that comment and that’s when I said, twice, that name-calling is not allowed and I will delete any comments which include name-calling (henceforth). What do you think I should have done instead?
“Bunny attacking me for telling people to have sex when they want, “they don’t fit in your neat and tidy estimation of people should just go with their feelings when they decide to have sex, right?”
That was a little sarcastic and perhaps goading. But it’s not an attack; those sort of comments are par for the course in a heated discussion.
“Bunny attacking me for telling people to have sex when they want”
Same.
“And then her judging women for having sex when they want to:”
Same.
Zek, I can’t call foul when people use the slightest sarcastic or defensive tone. That will happen in discussions, and you were sarcastic/defensive as well, quite early on. I don’t think people need me to shield them from a heated debate they’re playing their own part in?
Alee,
If you would like me to switch to approving every single comment that comes into the blog, I can do that.
I’m with Nkosazana. I don’t like when comments are moderated. Waiting for them to appear is a pain in the ass, and it breaks the flow of the discussion.
On the other hand, I understand that it’s needed in some cases.
But if you’re asking me, I think most (all?) people here can behave civil enough to stop with the bad things, ad hominems, etc. So maybe the moderation isn’t needed, after all?
“Maybe another female post on one night stands, or, simply, male attitudes towards it would be a good thing to do at the moment?”
That would be fine. Are you offering to write it?
Hmmm… I’d love to, but I’m not sure if I’ll have any free time before the weekend.
@ the subject:
I am sorry this thread got in the wrong direction (and I don’t mean on ad hominems only, but also the fact we never really discussed the fact casual sex might not work for men as much as it’s believed).
This is something I observed: it doesn’t make men as happy as it’s believed. On the other hand (and Zek might disagree here), most of the men will continue doing it, even if, deep down, it’s not something that works for them, emotionally, sexually or any other way. But they will continue to do it, and that’s one of the reasons women will continue to see men “being happy after a casual sex” and other things.
I don’t really think men and women are that different, but due to different socializing, they DO act differently. That’s why I hoped to hear a honest male opinion on the matter. Some sort of translation: we see that men do X, but let’s hear a male’s perspective on it. I thought it was an interesting subject. Some of you may remember that I offered male visitors back at my website to do a similar guest post. I think it’s quite interesting to hear the other side of the story, written by a man who seems to be more eloquent (and, dare to say, honest) about this issue than the usual, “macho”: “I’m a guy, I can’t help it!” answer we often get. But sadly, that opportunity is now lost, I think.
By the way, I don’t think casual sex works for women. Well, for some, yes. But for many, no. It’s not a moral issue, more a practical one. I think for many women, to enjoy sex, a man needs to put a bit effort into it. Without his effort, it’s not so fun; it’ better to stay home and watch TV (and play with a vibrator), than to have sex with someone who isn’t really enthusiastic about it. Sadly, this lack of enthusiasm on male part is often present with casual sex and one night stands, and that’s why a woman doesn’t get quality sex. Dare to say, the lack of enthusiasm is present with women, too, but – and now we’re back at the main topic – men don’t complain about it. Ok, sure, it’s easier for them to have orgasm, but is it so much fun when you’re having sex with a stranger, a girl who isn’t really enthusiastic about the whole thing, who is basically motionless, etc? I’d say it doesn’t sound like much fun, but I am not a guy and I don’t know if this sort of sex can truly satisfy a man (other than the “I’m a manly man, I just had sex and increased my number of partners, oh, how macho and manly I am!” narrative).
An older post of mine, that deals with some of these issues:
http://jefflion.net/archives/405
(Ok, yes, this was a generalization. I understand there are passionate, highly erotic casual encounters. But these seem to be more of an exception than the rule. Which brings us back to the question whether casual sex in humans is truly possible. But I don’t think that casual sex suck more for women than for men; men want to hide it, but many don’t seem as happy with casual sex as they are perceived to be).
Mira,
The post doesn’t have to be completed this weekend, but whenever you complete it. But you don’t have to write it, I just liked your suggestion.
“if you’re asking me, I think most (all?) people here can behave civil enough to stop with the bad things, ad hominems, etc. So maybe the moderation isn’t needed, after all?”
I’d thought so and still think so. The comments section of this post wasn’t a good example of that, however.
‘…I hoped to hear a honest male opinion on the matter. Some sort of translation: we see that men do X, but let’s hear a male’s perspective on it …I think it’s quite interesting to hear the other side of the story, written by a man who seems to be more eloquent (and, dare to say, honest) about this issue than the usual, “macho”: “I’m a guy, I can’t help it!” answer we often get.’
Same. I think it was a good post overall. Definitely a different perspective.
“But sadly, that opportunity is now lost, I think.”
No, as long as people can reign in their comments, the comments section can remain open and we can get back to that portion of the topic.
Thanks for your response re: comment moderation.
The fact that Zek did not go to MY FORUM to directly address me but instead comes running back here after throwing rocks is beyond FOUL. He is NOT interested in an honest discourse and has made bad faith arguments.
It is typical cowardice and misogyny to claim women who’ve dissented and given nuanced arguments why are “angry”, “bitter” and other such juvenile tactics while WHINING about being “picked on”.
GROW UP!
This isn’t about YOU, but about a poisonous message that has been allowed to be spread with little challenge.
This is a weak attempt at silencing the attempts of women with COMMON SENSE to warn others.
I am rather amused by the obfuscation tactics at play, but I already correctly identified that type of person who spreads such a garbage message to begin with.
This only confirms it.
Feel free to come to MY BLOG and engage me — if you have the guts to do so. You will not get any quarter, however.
Faith,
Why would I go to your blog?? It’s a hostile environment filled with bitter bigots.
But if you’re so intersted in an HONEST discourse, like you say, then why didn’t you post a comment in the thread? Why write a blog-post that has nothing at all to do with what I wrote? Why misquote me? Why call me a rapist when you have no idea? Why do any of the things you did? Is that what you call “honest”? Because if so you need to get a dictionary lady.
Meanwhile, why don’t you grow up, and write a blog post that doesn’t look like a childish death threat done in Crayola…
Alee,
But see, I wouldn’t complain about those things I quoted, except when I retaliate you tell me to be the “bigger person”, instead of moderating their comments like I feel you would do if someone said something racist. And as for the comments that are hard to judge, again I don’t care except that I’m being held to a different standard and asked to restrain my comments. And I am specifically singled out in your comments to me, but to anyone else you make a blanket statement. While I understand you are trying to control the conversation, I think moderating bigotry is important, but I also can see that we disagree so I’ll just leave it at that.
Meanwhile the things some of these commenters are accusing me of doing are false. Never made a value judgement on women who want to wait to have sex. Never told women they don’t have a right to say no. Never told women to have casual sex. Never even told women ANYTHING except how men view sex, dating, relationships, intimacy. And while, again, I understand people are going to struggle to understand a gender that they are not, just like with men who say miosgynistic things and get chastised for it, I’m not going to shy away from chastising people for being misandric. (I’m thinking specifically of Neecy’s comments. But others as well.)
Anyhoo, honestly I think this topic has not only been completely misread by the vocal minority, but it’s gotten so far off subject that it’s past time to close it off in my opinion and avoid anymore drama or people saying prejudicial things. There’s just nothing constructive coming out of it anymore.
You ZEK really need to stop with the BIGOTRY comments. You are out of your mind claiming we are “BIGOTS” . You write a blog about “male perspectives on sex” and think everyone is supposed to run in here and cheer you on? Please! Get a clue! If You cannot handle criticims or debate – don’t frickin write a post where you know comments will be made about what you write. And b/c some of us vehemently disagreed with your take on the “MALE PERSPECTIVE” you resort to kicking and screaming that we’re all “BIGOTS”. LOL what a joke.
Neecy,
Criticism and debate are great! And I was enoying the conversation about two hundred comments up (right until Faith’s link to her blog actually). But I never asked to be cheered. I just asked you not to be a bigot and make negative generalizations about men based on your limited personal experience. Is that too much to ask of you? I’m sorry! ; )
ZEK,
I didn’t come for a fight. It kinda got out of control. I just came to voice my opinions on the post. i really didn’t expect it would come to this. All I am saying is, you can have your beliefs, but just accept that is someone disagrees that are not attacking YOU personally but maybe the message?
Neecy,
I can understand that. You personally didn’t come off as seeking a fight. Faith did, and while my first instinct is to lump you in with her (based on your comments here, and those at Faith’s blog) I’m not going to do that because that’s ALSO deaming and lame.
I respect everyone’s right to have an opinion and disagree as vehemently as they want. But if I started making bigoted statements about Black people, or about women, or about Black women — even if I didn’t see them as bigoted wouldn’t mean that they weren’t! — how would you respond? Probably with the same immediate reaction I had, which is to call someone on it.
And frankly, attacking the message has become intertwined with attacking the messsenger per Faith’s blog-post. If you can’t see that, then I’m sorry, but it’s there plain as day. Maybe the fact that you aren’t a man makes it harder for you to understand what’s offensive about what you, Bunny, and especially Faith said? I don’t know. But I do know that if advocating for people to have sex when they want, and writing about how many men often view sex as a mean of getting closer emotionally (or merely grow closer emotionally to a woman after having sex) is somehow… poisonous, then honestly it’s not me with the problem but the commenter who seems unable to give up their fear, paranoia, and prejudice. Being bitter and angry towards me doesn’t somehow invalidate what I actually wrote, nor does it change what I actually said.
That many of the commenters here (perhaps you included?) tried to do this and failed is a testament to that fact. Because no one has quoted me to the direct effect that I said anything of the sort against women, period. Full stop.
Honestly though, I’m so over the drama, tired of the angry commenters hating on my audacity to talk about how many men truly view these issues. The sheer ferocity of some of ya’lls condemnation tells me that maybe some people just aren’t ready to hear something like this. Maybe it clashes too harshly with their own negative experiences? Maybe it’s just too far outside of the stereotypes some women hold about men? Or maybe it’s just too unbelievable for some women who’ve had to deal with a combination of racism and sexism to believe that people are actually pretty decent in general, if a little ignorant & misguided sometimes. Like I said, I don’t know, but either way this certainly taught me A LOT about how far some people will go to maintain their own view of the world.
P.S.
Just so we’re clear ya’ll. I never said I’m for — or against! — casual sex. I never said a woman doesn’t have the right to choose when they have sex. Nor do I believe a woman’s only power lies with their withholding of having sex. I also don’t believe women should use their withholding of sex to manipulate or coerce ANY man into a relationship — whether serious or casual — because not only is that morally repugnant, it also shows that the man you snatched is as shallow as you are. Finally, my overall point with regards to having sex has been, and continues to be, have sex when you want to and are ready to. If you disagree, cool beans & hot rice, but don’t pretend to be empowering or protecting anyone when you make decisions and judgements that usurp their own ability to choose.
Finally, what’s with the comments at Faith’s place dissing my girlfriend, Jasmin? As far as I know she’s hardly a part of the conversation. Are you that confused by what I’ve said that you need to dog out my girlfriend in order to explain why I have one who’s as amazing as she is? I’m sorry, but that’s in itself bitter and jealous as all hell. (I’m looking at you Neecy, AND Faith.)
For the record, my girlfriend is my EQUAL, and yes we have a wonderfully monogamous relationship. We’re quite shamelessly in love (you can ask her when she comments here in other posts) and both of us shake our heads at angry, bitter, or bigoted people. But unlike myself who often tries to understand ya’ll haters, she just laughs and keeps it moving. Sometimes I think that’d be the better idea.
Meanwhile if you’re going to make personal attacks, why not comment here directly instead of stabbing random bystanders in the back? At least you’d be less of a coward.
Bunny,
I realized I forgot to respond to your earlier comment — my bad!
I don’t care one wya or another about your answers, but they don’t seem to mesh with what you’ve actually said — See my comment to Alee with your quotes. You, “People just following their “feelings” and acting “organically” is simply a recipe for relational anarchy.” But that is only the tip of the iceberg.
Check your comments at 4:45 on June 10th. You get REALLY judgemental there. I could pick more, but there ARE over two hundred comments, and sifting thru takes time. But check that one, and maybe browse through your other ones? I’d say they’re VERY judgemental.
Meanwhile you did imply that women should withhold sex to “snatch” a man — see our conversation about how you view relationships as a “power struggle”. And finally, your comments over at Faith’s are just hilarious, “He didn’t really know me, but he was testing me to see if I was worthy of his respect.” By calling at 10:30? Or because he called at 10:30 to try to have sex? I’m not seeing the lack of “decency and courtesy” at 10:30 PM. Was this a school night? A work-night? A weekend? I mean, did he wake you up or something??
Anyhoo, ample proof aside, you didn’t answer my question until just now, but instead of actually answering it you merely quoted yourself. I asked you about women in the scenario, not one from your own scenario, and certainly not women in general. I asked you to make a very specific distinction on a very specific situation, which you seem loathe to do and I can only assume because you like answering your own questions better than answering mine ; )
Let me re-ask it though, just in case:
“withholding of sex as a means to snatching a particular man … seems kinda demeaning, if not downright lame.”
Now what is objectionable here? Because to me I see this as reading, quite clearly: women who use sex to manipulate or coerce a man into a relationship against his emotional desires because we think his desire for sex is greater are actually demeaning to men, if not just simply lame people.
Do you not see how it is OFFENSIVE, demeaning and/or lame to manipulate or coerce a man in order to possess — “snatch” — him as if he is an object, one with no control over his sex-drive (and thus withholding sex is effective in getting him)? And further, do you not see how OFFENSIVE it is to imply that women should withhold sex and ONLY be with men who’d respect them merely because they didn’t have sex, without making mention of his other qualities?
Feel free to respond. Or don’t. You seem to enjoy pretending your rosey answers don’t really smell like woo woo! ; )
I’m not going to lie: when I first read this I was smirking. However, near the end of the post, I was frowning and downright insulted. If you, Zek, want to implore women to understand your point of view and accept how offensive some of them were, I don’t think you are doing a good job leading by example.
For example: “After more than about a month of dating, if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you then chances are she isn’t attracted to you. For myself, if a woman didn’t even kiss me after the first date, I tended to be suspicious of her interest in me. ”
Excuse me?? So, you’re saying that my decision to not let a guy’s tongue down my throat the first date means that I’m not interested? What kind of messed up logic is that? And deciding not to have sex with a man A MONTH (yup, about 30 days or so) after meeting a man means that I’m not attracted to the guy in question? Thanks for speaking for women and what we do when we are attracted to someone. You claim to not want to be put into boxes, please do not do so with me. Also, why does the relationship have to be physical (a kiss after the first date and sex in the first month) so QUICKLY in order to cement attraction and connection? Isn’t that a narrow-minded approach to relationships? Isn’t that JUST as judgemental as a woman who thinks guys are always down for casual sex with no commitment?? Sure, you said in your post that it’s because you are too “nice” and afraid of being used, but again, how is this different from girls saying the same thing about guys wanting casual sex and no commitment? That’s why it’s very hard to date in this “microwave” era. Everything has to be done in five minutes or less.
Another point that made me go WTH: “Consequently there is always that push and pull where a guy wants to go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go. Often it’s not because he’s “only interested in one thing” but because he’s trying to connect in the most fundamental, biological way he knows how.”
Alright, so, because it’s not only about the sex for the guy, it’s OK to push her to “go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go?” Do you not see the problem with that statement? It’s no better than a guy who DOES only want one thing because the outcome is the same: the woman gets pressured to become physical in a relationship earlier than she wishes. Before you claim that that was not your intention, notice your wording with “push and pull.” Whether the guy is pushing or pulling, he is still directing the girl where she does not want to go yet sexually. Your words.
I’m not going to throw out the “S” word, but I certainly going to pull the entitlement card. Why do you think it’s understandable to want access to a woman’s body to “get closer” when she is not ready? I’m not saying a man cannot desire this because that is natural but why think that there is a need to engage in a “push and pull,” changing thoughts into action, if she does not give you access when she deems fit. Entitlement, maybe?
Lastly, “So to the women, when a guy wants to have sex with you, before you kick him to the curb or make him wait it out another couple of weeks, perhaps you should ask yourself if he just wants to be closer to you. Just saying.”
Um, how about a double scoop of no thanks. If there is no need to question a man’s sexual drive if it is all in the name of “getting closer,” there should be no question if the woman wants no part in that. No need for hesitation, no need for pondering, no need to question if he is in it for the sex or to “get closer.” If a woman’s instinct tells her that she is not ready, she is not ready. She does not have to go against what she wants just to please a guy she has known for a month, since that is your timeline and all
It’s expected that a woman do the most intimate thing she can do with a man in one-third of the time it take for a man to permanently retain a job? Again, no, thanks.
It’s ironic that one of the noted problems with girls who wait is that she could possibly be using it as a war tactic. Because I don’t see ANY of that power struggle illustrated in this post. Nope, not at all.
Zek,
“I wouldn’t complain about those things I quoted, except when I retaliate you tell me to be the “bigger person”, instead of moderating their comments like I feel you would do if someone said something racist.”
Sorry, but this is eye roll-worthy.
Let’s not play the “race” card, however we’re going to play it.
Those comments (excluding Faith’s) were expressing ideas and/or attacking ideas.
Your comments were attacking people.
See the difference?
…again I don’t care except that I’m being held to a different standard and asked to restrain my comments. And I am specifically singled out in your comments to me, but to anyone else you make a blanket statement.”
I know you felt like I was “singling” you out. But I also called Faith out by name, so that’s clearly not the case.
If anything, I’m (unconsciously) holding you to a lower standard. This comment should have been deleted. And it would have been, had it had any other name at the top besides “Zek J Evets”. Because I said several times that name-calling is not allowed and still you went, just a few comments later, and called someone a name. That indicates insubordination and disrespect. Disrespectful insubordinates will not last here.
Anyway, all discussion about the previous name-calling, ad hominem incidents is closed. That means no one is allowed to discuss that from here on, or the comments will be deleted. Comments about Faith’s post should be taken to that post.
Zek, you can send me an email if you wish to respond to my last comment.
Steph,
“–For myself, if a woman didn’t even kiss me after the first date, I tended to be suspicious of her interest in me. –
Excuse me?? So, you’re saying that my decision to not let a guy’s tongue down my throat the first date means that I’m not interested?”
No, that’s just his personal view on it. There are other men who aren’t the same way.
‘That’s why it’s very hard to date in this “microwave” era. Everything has to be done in five minutes or less’
Lol.
That reminds me of, “You can’t hurry love, no, you just have to wait…”
“Alright, so, because it’s not only about the sex for the guy, it’s OK to push her to “go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go?” Do you not see the problem with that statement?’
I don’t think that’s what he was saying.
He was trying to say that because both sides are trying to connect in different ways, there is this back and forth dance that occurs. Not that it’s okay for men to push a woman physically.
‘If there is no need to question a man’s sexual drive if it is all in the name of “getting closer,” there should be no question if the woman wants no part in that.’
Well, I’ll toast to that.
But I think Zek realizes by now that a woman’s waiting doesn’t necessarily mean she is trying to “trick” or “manipulate” a guy into a relationship… right, Zek?
Zek,
Since Alee has put an end to all discussion about previous name-calling, etc. (thank goodness…), I won’t answer most of what you asked me. But I think I’ve expressed myself clearly throughout this thread — with an admittedly heavy dose of sarcasm — and stand by everything I’ve said. No one else (except maybe Mira at first, and that was a possible language issue) seemed to have trouble understanding my points, even if they disagreed with them. Disagreement is fine, but I’ve been very clear and concise with all my points, and provided ample backup to support my ideas. People are free to accept or reject them, but I’m not going to be pushed into accepting something I fundamentally do not support or believe at all because someone wants me to “admit” something.
Yes, I’m judgmental when it comes to ideas. That’s what I’m SUPPOSED to do as a human being. I don’t see being judgmental as being a bad thing, and I wish more people would actually do so for their own benefit instead of feeling they have to give equal thought to ideas and concepts that clearly do not work for them.
I’m sure you’re judgmental when it comes to my ideas (see below), and you have every right to be. So yes, I probably made some judgmental statements about concepts and ideas that I considered and then rejected outright, and I make NO apologies for any of it!
And finally, your comments over at Faith’s are just hilarious, “He didn’t really know me, but he was testing me to see if I was worthy of his respect.” By calling at 10:30? Or because he called at 10:30 to try to have sex? I’m not seeing the lack of “decency and courtesy” at 10:30 PM. Was this a school night? A work-night? A weekend? I mean, did he wake you up or something??
Judgmental much?
Nothing wrong with that though… if you get to be judgmental about an idea or action, so do I!
If you want me to discuss this though, I’ll do it at Faith’s blog. I posted this at Faith’s blog for discussion purposes there, and only reposted it here to contradict your untrue statement that I attacked you on Faith’s blog. Some people might not have wanted to visit her blog to see what I actually said, so I posted the entire thing here so people could see there was no attack on you at her blog, like you claimed.
I can understand you probably don’t want to go to Faith’s blog (no sarcasm or snideness intended in that statement), so with that said, I’m not responding to your question about this here. It’s not germane to your post, which is what we’re discussing on this blog.
Steph,
I think you need to reread what I wrote. “After more than about a month of dating, if a woman doesn’t want to have sex with you then chances are she isn’t attracted to you. For myself, if a woman didn’t even kiss me after the first date, I tended to be suspicious of her interest in me.”
Chances. Not definitively she’s not interested. Just chances are that she’s not. It’s more likely, especially in our hyper-sexed culture. But if you feel that doesn’t apply to you, then don’t assume it does, because it’s meant as a carefully phrased general statement regarding a common trend. Notice how later in the post I say: “I’m talking about the real life, post-grad, living in a city, trying to get a boyfriend/girlfriend, haven’t had sex in months dating world.”
Keep that in mind before you get too upset (like many other comenters did). My post has specific parts that are intentionally interconnected with the rest and — but perhaps this is unfairly placing the onus on you? — you MUST read it as a whole, not selectively.
Again, you make this mistake in another statement, reading it as advocating physical violence or rape, instead of the dilemma a male faces in his head. Let me quote the entire passage back to you:
“Consequently there is always that push and pull where a guy wants to go further physically than a woman may be prepared to go.”
The push and pull is NOT a literal pushing or pulling. Not violent or physical. It’s a METAPHOR. Also, a guy WANTS TO go further physically, not that he has ANY entitlement or right to do so. Just that he wants to have sex because he’s getting so emotionally connected to this woman, or he may even be aware of this and wants to act on it in a very, as I said, biological way.
I’m sorry that you didn’t understand what I was saying and so consequently projected a lot of negative ideas on to me, but I felt was quite clear in my post. So please, remember to read through entirely, not selectively!
Alee,
I don’t believe a woman waiting to have sex is trying to manipulate or coerce a man. I mean, just from my personal experience that’s a very rare scenario — but it does happen! More often, when women want to manipulate or coerce a man, she tends to go (in my experience and those of the people I used to help write this post) the opposite: lots of sex with strings attached to get something out of it.
On the flip side, men who manipulate or coerce women (I’m thinking specifically of PUA-types) tend to think of themselves as empowered or needing to be empowered against women, and not as empowering women, which makes them distinct from people who are just sexually liberal.
Bunny,
Well color me confused. Why were you so upset at my being judgmental with regards to women who wait “too long” to have sex — even though I never was — but then suddenly feel perfectly okay with being judgmental yourself towards people who have casual sex?? Do you see the disconnect? First you chastise me for making value judgments, and now you’re saying human beings are SUPPOSED to be judgmental. Haha, so which is it?
And I’m also not seeing how my questions regarding the comment you cross-posted here are judgmental. I was asking in earnest. Speaking of answering questions, I did get an answer from you, but it wasn’t in response to my actual questions. No pushing required, no acceptance of my ideas necessary. I was merely asking you to entertain a notion and take on a perspective outside of your own in order to comprehend how many people view this issue. That said, it doesn’t ultimately matter because I don’t feel you actually understood the scenario I presented. So it goes.
Meanwhile, I see your support of Faith’s post as an attack, just as much as the juxtaposition of your interpretation of my post with guys like me (meaning myself included) as, in your words, “a cad”. But we can agree to disagree since, again, it ultimately doesn’t matter when you can’t understand.
I was merely asking you to entertain a notion and take on a perspective outside of your own in order to comprehend how many people view this issue.
I have in the past, I did again in this thread, and every time have thoroughly rejected it. Your point of view is nothing new or revelatory to me, I’ve heard it for 10 years from different people, although it was a minority viewpoint, for the most part. Your perspective is your perspective and I’m not interested in entertaining it nor was I interested in having romantic relationships with men who have such a perspective… therefore, I didn’t need to spend much time entertaining such a notion and taking on such a perspective.
Plus, I’m not exactly sure how “many” people share your view. I don’t know honestly… but I’m not buying that you’re providing some great deep insight into the mindset of large numbers of men…
but then suddenly feel perfectly okay with being judgmental yourself towards people who have casual sex??
Meanwhile, I see your support of Faith’s post as an attack,
Hmm, you still apparently struggle with the concept of judging/attacking people versus judging belief systems…
Bunny,
I have in the past, I did again in this thread, and every time have thoroughly rejected it.
You may have entertained it in the past, I don’t know. But when I asked you a direct question, you dodged answering it and went off on a tangent. Contrary to you saying, “okay, I’ll bite”. And apparently you never intended to answer in good faith anyways, judging by this statement, “Your perspective is your perspective and I’m not interested in entertaining it”. Notice I never asked whether you wanted to date any of the many guys who view these issues in the way that I wrote about. So why are you providing me with this information? Why do you constantly allude to how much you don’ want to date guys like this, when anyone reading this thread heard it about two hundred comments up?
However, you don’t need to buy anything, because I’m not selling ; )
I’m sharing something about how many men view sex, and intimacy. You can take it or leave it, but it ain’t going to change it. Honestly, I wouldn’t expect you to understand what’s inside the heads of large numbers of men, mostly because you are a woman and have never been, nor will ever be a man. (Note: I mean this in regards to you specifically, not to transgender or queer people who do not fit into these categories.) I feel the same way about my girlfriend: I’ll never understand what it’s like to be a Black woman, no matter how hard I try. Because I am not a Black woman.
Hmm, you still apparently struggle with the concept of judging/attacking people versus judging belief systems…
Nope, not struggling at all!
I just notice the inconsistencies in your arguments, and point them out for you =)
Judging a person’s belief system based on your misinterpretation or own negative experiences with it is judging a person as well. Easy example: calling Christianity “dumb” is, in effect, calling Christians “dumb”. I’ve had many negative experiences with Christians who presented to me a grossly misinterpreted version of the Bible, yet I do not think all Christians are that minority of personal experience.
Do you understand? And while you may feel that religion, or race, is not the same as the topic of my post, keep in mind that it is still inconsistent and hypocritical to treat one subject one way, and another differently — to judge me, what I wrote, and attack men who are that way, but then get upset at being perceived to have been judged negatively for being sexually conservative. A true double-standard.
But, again, I feel that you’re not truly understanding anything I’ve written to you. You seem to think I mean that I don’t like your answers, but that’s not it. I mean that you REALLY don’t get it. Or, as Frank Zappa once said, “One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people’s minds.”
You seem already decided on this issue, from the get-go as you stated upthread and just now. So why are you still talking to me if you, “didn’t need to spend much time entertaining such a notion and taking on such a perspective.” ???
Bunny,
P.S. You actually were being judgmental about people who have casual-sex. Just saw this comment you made up-thread: “I guess I cannot quite understand the expectation that women should just get naked and intimate with random dudes they barely know just because they are starting to develop interest in them. I mean, THAT is what I consider lame thinking… like, really? How mature is that? I like you, so let’s just go have sex?”
Tsk tsk =/
Let’s flip the script: I like you so let’s NOT have sex. Does that sound any more mature? Nope. It sure doesn’t. It’s just a personal choice that you decided to attack, according to YOUR way of thinking. (Note that I never got upset about it. But we’re playing with your rules at the moment, and I’m showing you how you keep changing the goalposts, haha.)
Also your comment on June 13th at 3:34 PM. Kinda setting up a parallel between the guys you talked about and myself there, huh! And another reason why I defended myself.
@ Zek and Bunny,
I think you two are now at that “agree to disagree” point, so how about it?
Most certainly Alee! I have no idea why Zek is still addressing me on this topic…
I do just want to point out as well that my original two comments were addressed to you and to Mira… that was the only reason I even said anything in this post because you two made points in the comment section that I found interesting.
I really had no intention of interacting with Zek at all, but since he started with this “See, I can understand why you’d think this, but I just can’t agree. Because to me that seems to reduce male-female interactions into a power struggle. Why can’t it just be organic and happen when you feel right about it?” … did he really think I wasn’t going to poke holes all through that?
Come on!
Anyway, you’re right, this is downright ridiculous. Zek can write more books responding to me and pointing out whatever he wants to point out. I’m done, my points were made, plenty of people appreciated what I had to say, and that’s that.
So, how’s the weather in your neck of the woods?
Alee,
I’d agree. Not much more to be gained, if there was anything at all. I think Bunny made her argument to the best of her ability, even though it inevitably fell apart upon closer inspection. Still, I’m glad to have had the writing practice — it takes pages and pages to unravel such convolution! Oy vey it most certainly does. I feel like a long-playing guitarist with blisters on my fingers =P
@ Zek and Bunny,
Great!
Hopefully we can all just shake this off and not carry any grudges into other threads over this minor disagreement in ideas.
even though it inevitably fell apart upon closer inspection
Delusion is amusing.
Alee,
No grudges carried into other threads on my end!
Okay, okay, you two, stop with the little snarky comments! You make me sad. Sad Alee deletes comments.
Alee, to answer an earlier question, I don’t think you need to moderate your blog in general, but on this thread, if you feel the need to, that’s fine.
Because… I do think snarky comments on this post will go back and forth if they’re not cut…
@Bunny (and everyone),
I’m closing the comments section for the time being. I’m going offline and I don’t want to return to a bunch of snarky or attacking comments.
Anyone who has a comment about the post or a reply to a comment can please hold it until I reopen the comments (probably on Monday). In the meantime, feel free to comment on other posts as usual.
Okay, I realized I never actually gave my thoughts on the post. So here is a short version of my take on the post and responses:
1) I agree that men emotionally connect through intimacy. The only issue I see with the post is the idea that if a man wants to be intimate, he likes you and is trying to connect emotionally. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case, although it can be. But I think most people here have enough experience to know that.
2) The issue I see with the comments is that some others are saying, no, sex is just sex and men just want it. This is true to an extent, but completely ignores that intimacy can be used as a way for a man to grow closer to his partner (IME, if he already has some form of attachment).That’s not always the case, and depending on your experience it may rarely be the case, but it’s not an all-out myth.
Sure… It amazes me how adolescent and twenty-something women let people like you GET THROUGH with their lies. And even more, how WOMEN say “Oh, yes, I’m just like men, I don’t give a damn if you’re crap, I’m more than crap, I love casual sex and then go home.” YEAH, RIGHT. I have women friends, both types: NAIVE and KNOW-IT-ALLS-I’MJUSTLIKEAMAN”. Their brain is so petit that they can’t reason by themselves (or deny to do so) that MEN SAY THIS SORT OF THINGS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET LAID, PERIOD. Both of the types end up crying for having been dumped afterwards. Just that the second type hides it even to her friends and keeps believing men will fall in love with her for being so “easygoing”. UNDERSTAND THIS, AND WOULD YOU PLEASE UNDERSTAND IT FOR ONCE WOMEN. WHEN A MAN REALLY RESPECTS YOU, HE DOESN’T CARE IF HE HAS TO WAIT W H A T E V E R THE TIME NECESSARY FOR YOU TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH BEING INTIMATE. Please, LISTEN TO OTHER EXPERIENCES, It’s easy to be misled by a man when you are falling for him, the hard, but SMART thing, is to USE YOUR BRAIN. I hope you post the comment…
Hi Helen,
“I hope you post the comment…”
Almost didn’t get through with all the name-calling! I’ve edited your comment for you. Commenting guidelines are up top.
lol
It’s your blog, Alee, so I won’t tell you what to do, but the excessive use of all caps hurts my eyes.
That being said, Helen comments focuses way too much on what men want and what men need, and I’m not sure if that’s the best way to go. Women do have to start thinking about themselves for a change.
Mira,
Lol, yes all caps can be a bit troublesome.
I agree that women should stop looking at relationships/intimacy as “what do men need/want” and tailoring their approach to that. What do you need and want? That’s way more important.
Helen,
I’m not sure how a woman isn’t using her brain by choosing willfully to have sex with someone she’s attracted to? I understand she may have expectations tied to that encounter, and I certainly know that many times men fail to live up to that expectation — often in incredibly hurtful ways — but I just don’t see the connection between trusting someone and not being smart. Is trust foolish? Or is it merely experience that makes us think so? I for one believe trusting another is paramount to having a successful relationship, even as we judiciously apply that trust depending on the person/situation/relationship/encounter/whatever.
But I also want to know why you seem to think a man shouldn’t feel uncomfortable that the woman he’s attracted to gives no outward sign of being physically attracted to him? I can understand if you think physical attraction isn’t important in a relationship, but for most people it is — men AND women. Can’t a man really care for someone even as they want that person to show some kind of physical sign of attraction, a kiss, a makeout? Or do you think physical desire and emotional investment are mutually exclusive?
Also do you think some men, most men, or all men are as deceitful as you say in order to get laid? Because that seems like a pretty low opinion to have of men based on what seems like just your personal experience. As a man I can tell you, not all men are like that. In fact, MOST men are not like that. And certainly I don’t judge women as a gender based on the few that have hurt me in the past! Why, that’d be misogynistic, wouldn’t it? I hope you extend the same courtesy towards the men that you meet. Because the alternative would seem to leave only living in fear, or anger.
FOR THE PAST YEAR, I have been trying to not lie about what I am looking for. I am divorced 10 yrs and not looking for another spouse. All I want to is to have fun and do that with someone who is well versed sexually. I am not willing to teach a tutorial on how to properly fuck; I need a mature man who has already driven around the block and knows how to handle the car with minimal instruction. Now having said that, I just got off the phone with one who would rather paint a family member’s living room than slip away with me to indulge in some hot animal frolic…. His words were ” I’ll be here for at least another two weeks. I ‘ll get with you before I leave..” Are you serious? I plan to be doing something / or someone else 2 weeks from now……
–I learned tonight why some men are simply willing pay for what they want. This attempting to be casual or I need to be in a relationship in order to get laid is for the birds.
I actually read a blog that I agree with! Yay for me!
In my experience over the years, I feel it would be impossible to even climax during sex if there was no real chemistry between both partners. That shallow stuff is for pervert losers who can’t get a decent person to bang them. Or gold digging sluts who can outshine themselves with an Oscar winning fake orgasm. No one wants to waste their time banging the same person more than once unless they liked them. They can just go bang the next person with out thinking twice about what’s her face (or his) I’ve had long time affairs and now a three year long “casual sex” relationship and having that comfort zone only makes it better. Casual sex doesn’t have to be cheap, meaningless, or hopeless. It’s something to look forward to once or twice a week. It keeps you smiling. Only rule is, you have to be adult when it comes to feelings. Don’t let pride mess with a good time, cause I can keep this up till I’m old pruny if he let’s me. That’s my view on this
thanks! Beer thirty yet??
I sat up to nearly 3 a.m. to read through all of these comments, and I have to say I agree entirely with Bunny. I respect Zek’s opinion, but the only issue it seems he didn’t address is how is this at all coercion on the woman’s behalf? Bunny in one of her replies even mentioned that if the man in the relationship felt he didn’t want to wait on the woman’s terms, he could, well, just leave. How is it demeaning or lame? I simply don’t understand. It’s her body; it’s her choice. Just as for the man it’s his choice if he’s interested in being patient with her personal timeline. All in all, this was one hell of a read on a Wednesday night! And THANK YOU Bunny for your comments, they truly struck a chord with me!