PUA is Pathetic and The Day I Was A Target

pua-objectificationPUA, also known as Pickup Artists, is a seduction community composed of men seeking to learn, teach, and discuss ways to improve social and dating success with women. PUA hit the mainstream with the 2005 book The Game by Neil Strauss.

Supporters and users of PUA methods and its community claim that PUA is helpful. It teaches men who would usually be rejected by women how to approach them successfully. And it provides a way for women who normally would have overlooked these men to see the potential of these men. PUA advocates contend that although PUA is often used by men to get women into bed, it can also result in successful relationships and even marriage and is beneficial to everyone involved.

Not.

PUA’s techniques are less about relationships, dating, or even “harmless fun” and more about manipulation, power play, and self-gratification. The “player” is usually a male who is lacking self-esteem due to being rejected or passed up by attractive women. He sees dating and his “target” (term used for the woman who is sought) as a game to be won. It is little more than vengeance — the man seeks to use manipulative psychological methods to bring the attractive woman down to his “level”.

One of the most talked about PUA techniques is the neg, or negative hit. “Negging” is a method whereby a guy attempts to lower the self-confidence of an extremely attractive woman by complimenting her and shortly thereafter insulting her, or giving her a backhanded compliment — an insult disguised as a compliment (e.g. “You lost 20 pounds? Wonderful! When are you going to lose the rest? or “Nice nails. They look so real.”) The woman, who is used to being praised by men, is thrown off-balance. The “negger” is then given an opportunity to work his “charm”.

Not too long ago I had my own close encounter with the neg when a guy at a local drugstore decided I would become his “target”. What follows is a quick, painless (or painful, if you’re the guy involved), smart way of shutting down an attempted neg.

pua-patheticI walked into the store and entered the aisle where skin care and hair care items were stocked. A guy was next to me, reading the back of a shampoo bottle. He quickly glanced at me, smiled when I caught his eye, and went back to inspecting his shampoo bottle. A few moments later he turned to me with a chuckle — “This stuff is expensive! Maybe I should start washing my hair once or twice a year to save money.” I gave him a quick smile and resumed gathering the products I came for. He then said “Hey, you know you have a beautiful smile. When you smile, your whole face lights up.” I tried not to roll my eyes as I thanked him and got ready to walk away.

Just then he tapped my shoulder. I looked down at his finger as he said, “But you have something in the corner of your eye — one of those eye crusties.” I wiped my eye, thanked him again, and left the aisle.

But he wasn’t finished.

Several minutes later he caught up with me in the snack aisle. He pretended to be looking at chips, but stopped and gazed at me. “Oh, you still have that eye crusty. Just telling you, you know, because you’re a very pretty lady otherwise.” He smiled widely.

I peered at him: “Really? If you were that interested in me — for anything — you could have just said so… Of course I would have promptly replied no since I have a boyfriend and you’re not my type anyway. But by thinking you were going to “game” me with your “neg” you only made yourself look very desperate and pathetic. And landed yourself a spot in my next blog post on the ridiculousness of PUA. It will be a good one, all thanks to you.”

He looked to his left and right and half-smiled at me with red cheeks. I turned and walked off.

Anyone else have an experience with PUA or other failed pick-up strategies?

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111 thoughts on “PUA is Pathetic and The Day I Was A Target

  1. I think that would work on some women to be totally honest. Meh Swedish men are just to shy to do this to totally strange women without some alcohol in them lol. I find Black South African males goes right to the point, Pretty much say out straight “lets have dinner and then I’ll take you back to my place”.

    I also think you should start carrying mace or a stun gun 😉

  2. Nkosazana,

    “I think that would work on some women to be totally honest.”

    It does work on some women and that’s why it’s one of their strategies. Typically women whose self-esteem is built upon being considered attractive and desirable. Then I think other women only go along with it because they are interested in the same thing as the guy and/or they are interested in him.

    “I also think you should start carrying mace or a stun gun ;)”

    I was seriously contemplating carrying pepper spray. So I don’t have to say anything when a guy won’t leave me alone — just aim and shoot.

  3. One thing I don’t get… How would insulting /giving a backhanded compliment make her interested? Isn’t the point to, well, give her lots of compliments? Or am I missing something?

    Between us, it’s quite easy to “catch” a woman who thinks she’s unattractive (and have a low self esteem because of it). Just give compliments on her physical appearance, state that you do, in fact, prefer women who are (curvy, have small breasts, or whatever is that she hates about herself) and voila. Sad but true, many women would fall for this.

    I hated Beverly Hills 90210 with passion, but I always quite one piece of wisdom that actually seems to be true: pretty women want to hear they’re smart, and smart women want to hear they’re pretty. Of course, there are many women who are too cautious (mature, intelligent) not to fall for this, but there is enough of them who would.

    Now, about local PUAs… There seem to be plenty of them, especially when you go out (at clubs and parties). Belgrade is known for its wild night life (seriously… We are one of the craziest cities in Europe for this), so PUAs appear in large numbers at night. This doesn’t mean they are not active during daylight.

    But their approach is usually pushy and lame at the same time. They usually don’t go as far as touching you, but they would whistle and drop comments that should sound like compliments, and sometimes, they yell the most frequent female names in hope they’ll guess yours so you’ll have to turn around. The only tactic that works is to ignore it. Completely. The moment you stop to say something- anything- be it fu.k off, they will take that as a sign of an interest and will get very annoying and, sometimes, pushy. Not aggressive, in most of the cases, but difficult to get rid of.

    The solution? Either don’t be attractive (nobody would harass you in this case; most won’t even see you as a female, which, paradoxically, could mean they’d give you a better respect, as I blogged here:
    http://jefflion.net/archives/338 )

    OR (if you can’t help being gorgeous), just ignore, ignore, ignore.

  4. Mira,

    “How would insulting /giving a backhanded compliment make her interested?”

    The reasoning is that very attractive women are used to people giving them lots of compliments. What they aren’t used to is someone not falling all over them or noticing their flaws. This lowers her self-confidence a little and makes her want to prove herself worthy to the person who isn’t falling all over her; both of which makes her easier to pick up.

    “We are one of the craziest cities in Europe for this”

    I know. After dating a Bulgarian and hanging out with him and his Eastern European friends, I know how Eastern Europe is. 🙂

    “sometimes, they yell the most frequent female names in hope they’ll guess yours so you’ll have to turn around.”

    Lol. How lame.

    When it comes to guys, I’ve heard it all. So there is little that could catch my interest except a sincere approach (if you’re shy, even better). No compliments, no insults. And I’m good at detecting BS artists.

  5. The reasoning is that very attractive women are used to people giving them lots of compliments.

    True. But, here’s the tricky part. You can’t always tell who is used to compliments and who is not. There are many women (at least where I live) who dress provocatively and/or always try to look “their best” because they are insecure about how they look. So telling them they are not hot would not make things any better.

    I know. After dating a Bulgarian and hanging out with him and his Eastern European friends, I know how Eastern Europe is.

    Well, I guess it depends on the country. It might look wild to the outsiders, but some of my friends claim some of the EE countries are “boring” when it comes to clubbing and stuff. All I know prices in Bulgaria are very affordable comparing to my country. But generally, yes, Eastern Europeans like to party and will take any opportunity to make it as wild as possible (as long as it doesn’t include (male) homosexuals).

  6. Mira,

    The neg is supposed to be used to get past the “b*tch shield” that some attractive women have up; the stance that says “Leave me the hell alone”. They assume women adopt this stance after being fawned over and hit on by too many guys.

    “It might look wild to the outsiders, but some of my friends claim some of the EE countries are “boring” when it comes to clubbing and stuff.”

    Nope. Eastern Europeans fit right in with the typical hardcore frat parties here, which sometimes land people in the hospital.

  7. I also think PUAs are pathetic.

    Actually, it’s almost an industry. There are all these PUA gurus out there selling ebooks. Lots of money is being made pushing this twisted self help crap to use on women.

    I think a major portion of PUAer’s have extremely low confidence…. and they feel like they need some concrete system to find girls.

    PUAs aren’t all players that get tons of chicks, I think it’s mostly made up of sad losers trying some of these techniques like negging and cocky/funny because women have zero interest in them (either bad looks or horrible personality)… but they’re losers to begin with, and trying to show fake inflated confidence won’t do much. But it does seem to work on some types of girls…. the PUA techniques… but maybe it’s just because these guys are forcing themselves to hit on women.. so it’s like a numbers game to them. Most will turn them down for a one-night stand.

  8. AJ,

    “Actually, [PUA is] almost an industry.”

    It is an industry; when you’re making profit through various venues, books, magazines, forums, etc, it’s officially an industry.

    “I think a major portion of PUAer’s have extremely low confidence…. and they feel like they need some concrete system to find girls.”

    I agree that many have low confidence. Talking to them, this is obvious. And PUA is designed for so-called beta males who typically have lower self-confidence and social success.

    But not only do they wish to find girls, they wish to have power over them. In fact, I’d say that is their primary goal.The truth is, they feel like women have all the power when it comes to dating (which is ridiculous… but I won’t get into that now) and they resent this. It’s not a coincidence that many men I know online who are deeply into PUA have racist leanings.

    “PUAs aren’t all players that get tons of chicks”

    Most of them aren’t getting a ton of women…

    “it does seem to work on some types of girls”

    The thing is: they don’t even need PUA techniques to get most of the women they do. I knew a guy in college who looking back, used lots of PUA methods, and he got several girls to sleep with him (eventually, and mostly when they were drunk). But most of these girls were already looking to hook up, they just needed a little push.

  9. And PUA is designed for so-called beta males who typically have lower self-confidence and social success.

    Yep, but the thing is, they feel they “deserve” an attractive woman. I was reading on Jezebel (go figure) a couple weeks ago, and some commenters brought up the very good point that nerdy guys/guys socially rejected by women, instead of “staying in their lane” and dating nerdy/social reject girls, still aim for the most popular girl. The heirarchy of dating and attractiveness is only bad when it doesn’t benefit them.

  10. Jasmin,

    “Yep, but the thing is, they feel they “deserve” an attractive woman.”

    Indeed. It’s very peculiar. But so… male. 😉

    “The hierarchy of dating and attractiveness is only bad when it doesn’t benefit them.”

    Say it again. 🙂

    They don’t seem to understand this point. Or pretend not to understand it.

    They will be all “Well, tough luck” when it comes to women who are perceived as less attractive discussing their dating woes. But then act like it’s unfair they aren’t handed a “8, 9, or 10” woman, and find ways to manipulate situations in order to get one.

  11. Right on Miss Alee for schooling a loser! I have to say that I would not have picked up on him running the PUA game on me, but the comment ““Oh, you still have that eye crusty. Just telling you, you know, because you’re a very pretty lady otherwise.” would have rubbed me the WRONG way and it would have been over.

    I think that we can learn a thing or to from men by having a standard for men that we stick to!

  12. Sherry,

    “Right on Miss Alee for schooling a loser!”

    😀

    Unluckily for him, I do lots of research. And I’d already known all about negging before this incident. However, yes, him telling me I had an eye crusty (which I didn’t, btw), would not endear him to me. I’m not that type.

  13. Shame on him for being attracted to you and trying to meet you in a rather transparent and obvious way. Shame on all guys for finding themselves lonely enough in life that they tries to actually think about and learn something about male-female interactions and try and improve their approach in a situations like this.

    Kudos to you for shooting him down before even knowing the slightest thing about him other than he wanted to meet you and that he was somewhat clumsy when it comes to this sort of thing. Obviously guys who don’t have the self confidence to ‘come up with their own lines” and who are pathetic enough to work on improving themselves in this area deserve public humiliation and women bragging about how they blew them off.

    You go girl.

  14. Hi Rob, welcome.

    I’m sensing a little sarcasm? Exciting! 🙂

    You said,

    “Shame on all guys for finding themselves lonely enough in life that they tries to actually think about and learn something about male-female interactions and try and improve their approach in a situations like this.”

    Like I mentioned in the post: in my experience, PUA is less about trying to honestly meet and have relations with women, and more about ego gratification and manipulation. A quick perusal through a PUA forum or a read-through of their techniques will show you that. Their techniques are dripping with sexism, if not outright misogyny. Just an innocent way to learn about male-female interaction? I don’t think so.

    “Kudos to you for shooting him down before even knowing the slightest thing about him other than he wanted to meet you and that he was somewhat clumsy when it comes to this sort of thing.”

    If he wanted to “meet” me, he should have brought his clumsiness! Clumsiness is endearing to me; the situation probably would have worked out much better. Though of course he wouldn’t have ended up with a date, at that time.

    I like shy men and geeky men — I’ve dated many. Never underestimate the power of being yourself.

    But, in fact, he was not clumsy. Not at all. He thought he was being very smooth with his negging, and was very confident about its/his ability. The only time he seemed unsure was when he knew he was caught.

    ‘Obviously guys who don’t have the self confidence to ‘come up with their own lines” and who are pathetic enough to work on improving themselves in this area deserve public humiliation and women bragging about how they blew them off.’

    Obviously women who visit their local drugstore to buy toiletries deserve men trying to use worn-out techniques to put them down and make them feel insecure.

    Obviously!

    But, I feel your pain. It’s so sad isn’t it? That innocent, well-meaning guys like him end up being disgraced by evil women like me?

    Get serious: I’m not at all remorseful. In fact, I think I went too easy on him. I should have took a picture of him to add to this post with the caption, “Pathetic.”… Ta-da! 🙂

    “You go girl.”

    I mean, yeah.

    *high fives*

  15. Lol Alee, was this “Rob” character the guy you shot down in the drugstore? 🙂

  16. Robynne, lol, at first I was thinking it might have been. But no, I don’t think so. In general, PUAs and guys who support PUA tend to be a bit sensitive about people saying less than positive things about it. Because many times, they are lacking in true self-confidence, which is why they get into PUA in the first place.

    Not saying this applies to Rob though, of course. 🙂

  17. From what I’ve heard, the PUA industry preys on lonely men who don’t know how to get women, tells them ridiculous tactics that almost never work, and then the instructors tell them they need to pay more money for additional “training” since they must just not be doing it right. No different from millions of other scams out there, like your typical “get rich quick” scheme. Sure you have some honest guys out there trying to make a a better living for themselves, but you have a bunch of guys thinking they can do hardly any work, and be rewarded with big mansions, fancy cars, and retire in 3 years. Just like the PUA industry, some guys are just lonely trying to improve their confidence and be better with women, others buy into the lies and think they can go around picking up a different woman and have sex with her every day of the week. Sounds like you ran into the latter.

    In other news, here is a hilarious video of a “PUA” in action

    [Video no longer available]

    Comedy gold.

  18. No, I’m not the guy in the drugstore. I have no idea how I stumbled across your blog this morning, nor what prompted my firing off such a sarcastic comment.

    You were there, so obviously your instincts about the specific situation occur to you as somehow offensive. But from the way the story was told, IN GENERAL, I really have a difficult time faulting a guy for walking into a drugstore, finding himself attracted to a woman he has never seen before, and deciding to put himself out there and take a social risk in an attempt to find out whether she is indeed worth him taking the time to get to know.

    Because that is the extent of his ‘crime’ as far as it occurs to me. He behaved ‘like a guy’. He made his attraction known. And good thing that men do this sort of thing, if they did not do this sort of thing, there wouldn’t be nearly as many people walking around in the world.

    And what nobody knows here is how often this guy does this sort of thing … I mean … it is a VERY different situation if you were in a nightclub at the time … where some guys run around shooting off the same line over and over until they finally get some sort of “traction” with a woman, ANY woman. For all we know, the guy in the drugstore may have never had such a conversation in his life … but after seeing you breeze by him in the drugstore … he was hopelessly smitten and he did whatever he could think of to start some sort of conversation.

    Or maybe he was indeed some sort of card carrying PUA from the local lair and was out on the prowl trying to win a bet as to who could score the most phone numbers that day. We just don’t know.

    Because taking exactly this sort of social risk is what guys do, it’s what we are told we need to do, and we learn that if we don’t do this sort of thing, take a chance and ‘seize the moment’, then we don’t live out our end of the fairy tale. Every romance story/chick flick we have ever been forced to sit through with our girlfriends starts off with EXACTLY the sort of scene that you described in your blog post. EVERY SINGLE ONE. And that’s why it’s so hard for me to understand why the eagerness to turn this guy into a villain here.

    Anyway, the behavior you describe does not occur to me as anywhere near offensive. It may have been offensive to you, and true enough, his manner or his energy may have occurred to you as creepy for whatever reason and obviously that is very valid. But to me, it just sounds like he was being a guy who wanted to find out if you were indeed worth getting to know. And yeah, he used a corny line, but so what? Seriously … so what? Whatever he would have said, could be considered “a line” or “an opener”. Maybe he picked the wrong one to use with you. Maybe you did have something in the corner of your eye.

    Regarding him not being “your type”. What does THAT mean? 75 percent of married women cheerfully admit that they were not the least bit attracted to their husbands when they met. SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT! That’s a lot. My wife had absolutely zero interest in seeing me for a second date, she went home after our first meeting and vowed to her roommates that she was swearing off online dating. But according the Brides Magazine, the 75 percent statistic is pretty much the way it is. Women are rarely attracted to the guy who turns out to be their husband. Your mileage may vary, obviously.

    Another true story … there is another guy I know who fell for a woman at first glance, made some corny attempt to meet her, she shot him down, and then he ran into her again leaving her house, and she shot him down again. He left her a note, no response. Then a flower at her door. Then another flower. Then another. And another. He left her a flower/note every day for a solid month. Nobody could believe it, yet he persisted. Because this is exactly how great love stories so often begin.

  19. Rob,

    I am not Alee, so obviously her views on this might be different than mine. But seriously: romantic movies? I thought one of the main thing about them was the fact they’re unrealistic, and rightfully so.

    You might know real love stories that begin with a guy leaving a rose every day for a month, but I don’t. Love stories I know start pretty “uninspiring”: people meet through mutual friends, or at work. Obviously, this doesn’t make a good romantic comedy plot. But it’s reality.

    Also, I don’t want to doubt your 75% percentage, but I must say I don’t see a point of dating, let alone, marrying a person you’re not attracted to. Nor would I like to be with someone who doesn’t find me attractive.

  20. that guy,

    “From what I’ve heard, the PUA industry preys on lonely men who don’t know how to get women, tells them ridiculous tactics that almost never work, and then the instructors tell them they need to pay more money for additional “training” since they must just not be doing it right.”

    Pretty much. Except now they have all these forums and blogs where you can learn tactics for free and discuss techniques with other guys.

    That PUA video was just… sad. How desperate.

  21. Hi Rob,

    Okay, there’s a lot to digest here. So I’ll break this into two comments.

    Part 1

    “You were there, so obviously your instincts about the specific situation occur to you as somehow offensive.”

    Right. Well, not offensive, but irritating.

    “But from the way the story was told, IN GENERAL, I really have a difficult time faulting a guy for walking into a drugstore, finding himself attracted to a woman he has never seen before, and deciding to put himself out there and take a social risk in an attempt to find out whether she is indeed worth him taking the time to get to know.”

    Here’s the problem: the guy didn’t stop when I first brushed him off. It’s a really bad sign when a guy just disregards the fact that a woman clearly wants nothing to do with him. I didn’t give any indication that I was interested, in fact I showed blatant disinterest in him and his advances. He should have stopped when I walked away from the aisle stone-faced. If he had done that, instead of watching me and following me, none of this would have occurred.

    But he persisted, and moved from compliments to insults. (“You’re a very pretty lady otherwise.”)

    Why did he persist? Because he thought that he could “break me down” by making me feel insecure about some perceived imperfection. That is manipulation. And I have no sympathy for manipulators.

    “He behaved ‘like a guy’.”

    Plenty of guys do not act like this. Or I wouldn’t have dated so many.

    “And what nobody knows here is how often this guy does this sort of thing …”

    Does it matter? I don’t think it matters much to any “target” whether the guy has “negged” someone before. What matters is that he tried to gain psychological control over them by insulting them. This is very different from innocent attraction where a guy honestly comes up to a woman and expresses his interest.

  22. Part 2

    “Anyway, the behavior you describe does not occur to me as anywhere near offensive.”

    That’s because:

    (a) you’re not a woman, and

    (b) it didn’t happen to you.

    I’m not expecting you to see it as offensive. Nor am I expecting anyone else to see it that way — my goal with this post was not to make people feel offended on my behalf. At the time I was more annoyed and amused than offended, in any case.

    “It may have been offensive to you, and true enough, his manner or his energy may have occurred to you as creepy for whatever reason and obviously that is very valid.”

    He was creepy. He presented himself as the kind of person that is overly confident in his abilities, would readily take advantage of someone, and not care the slightest if he hurt them in the process.

    ‘And yeah, he used a corny line, but so what? Seriously … so what? Whatever he would have said, could be considered “a line” or “an opener”.’

    If you really think I was annoyed at him using a corny line, you missed the point completely.

    “Maybe you did have something in the corner of your eye.”

    Like I said to another commenter: I didn’t have an eye crusty. I checked in the mirrors that were hanging near the make-up.

    ‘Regarding him not being “your type”. What does THAT mean? 75 percent of married women cheerfully admit that they were not the least bit attracted to their husbands when they met.’

    I’m sure I’d fall into the 25 percent that were initially attracted to their husbands. It is important that at the very least I am not put off by the guy at first meeting, which I obviously was with this guy.

    By my type, I mean not only physically (he wasn’t a terrible-looking guy, though he was a bit buff and I’m not into buff guys), but his whole person. It didn’t appeal to me. I’m not going to “fall” for him later on when I become used to him — I’ve tried that. It doesn’t work for me.

    Mira says:

    “I must say I don’t see a point of dating, let alone, marrying a person you’re not attracted to.”

    You already know I agree with this 100 percent.

    “Another true story …”

    I find this quite ironic since I just finished reading Gavin de Becker’s Gift of Fear for the second time and he has a chapter dedicated to this: persistence. There are stories just like the one you mentioned. Is someone being persistent really a good thing?

    He talks about how movies and media present this idea that women have no say in who they will engage with or not; that when they say “No” to a guy’s advances, it doesn’t have to mean “No”. Instead it could mean “Try harder”, “Maybe…”, or even, “I’ve found my guy!” Popular culture teaches that if a guy is just persistent enough, he can “get” a woman he wants, no matter how many times she says no to him or tries to avoid him. It teaches that what a woman says or does doesn’t matter at all — it’s all about the guy and what he wants.

    This is a basic violation of human rights.

    No matter how normal or even romantic you think this behavior may be, it’s not okay. A person should be able to say no and have that taken seriously. In any other circumstance, persistently bothering a person and following them around to their home and other places would be considered a serious offense. And it should be considered such with dating.

  23. Bunny, ha, I don’t get too bothered by people and their various behaviors, ideas, etc. (within moderation). I’m infinitely interested in social dynamics: I consider them something to examine and learn from. And possibly blog about!

    Mira, guys who are persistent in this way are basically being stubborn and selfish. It’s not attractive.

  24. Well, it is nice when a guy shows his interest and doesn’t “play hard to get”, so to speak (refuse to call you, pretend you’re unimportant to him, etc). But in order to come to this point, you need to be interested in him and or/go out on a date with him, or something. Not just… a random guy who thinks your “no” is meaningless, or that you’ll like him if he persists.

    Now, in a way, I understand what Rob is talking about. It’s not like there isn’t a heavy media/social encouragement to this behaviour. He’s right about the romantic comedies: guys do all sorts of things in there that would be considered creepy in real life. Also, there seem to be many stories along the lines of: “when your mother first met me, she hated me; but luckily, I was persistent”.

  25. Mira,

    ‘Well, it is nice when a guy shows his interest and doesn’t “play hard to get”, so to speak (refuse to call you, pretend you’re unimportant to him, etc). But in order to come to this point, you need to be interested in him and or/go out on a date with him’

    Right. We all want people to be forthright, but there has to be a level of mutual attraction there.

    I understand where Rob is coming from, but that doesn’t mean the behavior is okay and women should simply accept it. There are many questionable and/or potentially harmful behaviors that are encouraged in segments of society.

  26. Also, maybe it’s just me, but I was never into going out with somebody I didn’t know (at all). And I don’t think I’m alone. Many women don’t accept invitations from guys they meet on the street, or in the store, or whatever. It’s just… too random.

  27. I dated a guy I met on the bus home from work one night. But we spoke on the phone for a couple of weeks before our first date. It turned out that he was the nephew of one of my professors, who was very fond of me. So the pressure was on. Anyway, I wouldn’t have dated him having only briefly spoken to him once.

    Actually, the way he approached me could serve as a good example of how you could approach a woman successfully without PUA techniques.

    He was with a couple of his friends, coming back from basketball practice, and he kept staring at me as the bus was riding along. His friends noticed him staring at me so they started staring. It was a little awkward so I smiled at them and asked them a bit about basketball and we had a brief discussion about that. He whispered something to his friends as I got off the bus to get on the train home.

    They got off with me, even though I’d heard them say previously that they were going to a different stop. They casually started walking behind me, then beside me, then ahead of me, leaving just me and the guy walking together. He looked at me, smiled, and made light chatter. He asked me if I was cold and I said yes, and he offered his jacket. I of course declined, and he said something like “I knew you would; but just checking”. I laughed and made a joke, and he sort of relaxed after that (before he seemed kind of nervous).

    He talked about basketball and practice for the rest of the way, and he didn’t try to come on to me anymore. When we got to the train station, he stopped, shrugged his shoulders and said in the most casual voice ever, “So, uh, can I have your number?” I said, “Yeah.” (He always teased me later about how I said that, saying my voice was so “girly”.) I gave him the number and he said, “Okay, I was ready for you to say no. But I’ll call you.” I said, “I know you will!”

    Note that he backed off when I declined his offer to wear his jacket. Note that he wasn’t arrogantly expecting anything from me. Note that he didn’t attempt to insult me to make me more amenable to his advances. Note that he went with the tide, rather than against it by trying to strong-arm me into being interested in him. Of course I was also attracted to him physically (tall, good bone structure, thin, athletic build = just my type), but if he would have approached like the guy in the post, all bets would have been off.

  28. lol, Alee, what a story! I admit casual talk (that has nothing to do with giving compliments) is a good way to go. However, I am not sure if I’d like them getting off the bus with me.

  29. So very nice to meet all of you!

    Regarding “persistence” and the Gift of Fear. I have also read this book, it was okay. But the warnings about romantic persistence, etc rubbed me the wrong way.

    Both of my grandparents passed away a few years ago within a few days of each other, and I do miss them both terribly …. this would have been such a great situation right here for my grandma Magda to post about the circumstances under which she met her husband Antal of 68 years. Because it was he at the age of 22 met my Magda for the first time, and was so smitten with her that he left her a rose every single day until she finally decided to allow him to “come calling” which is how it worked I back then, I guess. A girl would make herself available for 3 hours every Sunday to receive callers … but only qualified callers were allowed to come sit and talk to her. So after a month of dogged persistence, my grandfather finally made “the list” for the following week, and the rest is history. I, for one, am sort of happy that instead of insisting on a restraining order and making my stubborn grandfather into a villain within her weekly sewing circle, instead she “gave in” and gave him a chance … a chance that he parlayed into 68 years, four kids, 11 grandchildren, and over a dozen great-grandchildren. As a mentioned, they died within days of each other.

    So that’ s why I can’t join the “human rights” violation that was committed here by my grandfather when he left rose #30 on Magda’s doorstep. She told great stories about how she finally “gave in” even though she thought he was way “under my league”. I’m not saying she didn’t become attracted LATER, as this is pretty necessary for two people to stay together, I’m just saying EARLY ON, it doesn’t seem to really make that much a a difference if the female is “interested”. Again, every long story I’ve ever seen sort of starts off this way, not only that, MANY of my friend and families “love stories” start this way as well … and I’d urge you to survey married couples you know and hear their “how we met” stories. You will find, like I did, that the majority of stories involve the woman being less than “smitten” early on … it’s simply a romantic, time worn, story of how boys and girls get together.

    Regarding the “romantic comedy” opening scene in the drugstore .. well I’m just asking readers to go back and read the scene again, this time pretending that you are watching a movie with Jennifer Aniston or Katherine Hygel as the lead. She walks into a drugstore some rando morning … and some annoying guy comes up and starts up an annoying conversation where he is sort of flirting with her in an obvious way, she blows him off and leaves somewhat annoyed, or at least proud of the way she blew him off so much that she brags about the story to her friends.

    And I’m just asking, could this very story of two people meeting NOT qualify for the opening of a Jennifer Aniston movie? It sounds to me like every film she’s ever made! And that’s my whole point in posting … it’s a matter of context. From how the story was TOLD, it simply occured to me, some rando-human trolling through the author’s blog, that the situation described occurred totally differently to me, as it did to the writer, and obviously if we had the real villain here, we would hear a totally different “take” on what happened. That’s what makes life so great … so many different perspectives on the simplest situation.

  30. Mira,

    I’ve got plenty of interesting “how we met” stories for my various exes. That one is fairly normal. 😉

    I wasn’t turned off by them getting off the bus after me, since I had already spoken to them on the bus and gauged that they were okay people. It was so obvious what they were trying to do, even though I was kind of thinking, “Hey, where are you guys going?” when they walked ahead of me and left us alone.

    This guy actually ended up being very controlling and possessive (even though he thought he should be free to do whatever he wanted). But he was always respectful and sweet like he was on that first night. I guess he was being sincere about the jacket because he let me wear his jacket and other winter wear plenty of times while dating. If he didn’t have gloves, he’d blow my hands with his breath and rub them to make them warm. Lol. So I don’t think I made a terrible choice.

  31. Hey again Rob,

    ‘Regarding “persistence” and the Gift of Fear. I have also read this book, it was okay.’

    Wow, it seems like everyone on earth has read this book. Maybe I should just start mentioning it whenever I meet someone — should be a good opener.

    “the warnings about romantic persistence, etc rubbed me the wrong way.”

    I wonder why? Lol. 🙂

    Sweet story about your grandparents, but that doesn’t prove anything. Leaving a rose is a completely different story from following a woman around and insulting her — I hope you can see why.

    Plus, your grandparents grew up in the early 1900s? Needless to say, there were a lot of things done by men to women then that would not be tolerated nowadays. And with good reason. (Not saying that what he did was terrible.)

    ‘I’m just saying EARLY ON, it doesn’t seem to really make that much a difference if the female is “interested”.’

    Lol. Keep thinking that.

    ‘Again, every long story I’ve ever seen sort of starts off this way, not only that, MANY of my friend and families “love stories” start this way as well …’

    That’s your experience. Most of the couples I know met in circumstances like those Mira mentioned above.

    “And I’m just asking, could this very story of two people meeting NOT qualify for the opening of a Jennifer Aniston movie?”

    Like Mira said, movies, especially romantic ones, are meant to be fantastical and unrealistic. There are so many things that occur in film and TV that don’t happen quite like that in real life. In a movie, the persistent guy always gets the girl. In real life, he might get a restraining order.

  32. Reread my post, I should make one thing clear.

    Totally agree that “No means No”. If you really don’t want a person bugging you, you have every right to say “Look, call me crazy I’m not interested and your continued persistence is starting to scare me, okay?” You say that, and then you will be left alone, as you should. I think that was one of the main tenants in the “Gift of Fear” book.

    Because guys are told all the time that “No means Maybe” some times. And “NO” means “Try Harder” other times. and “NO” means “Not right now” other times. And then, obviously, there are times when it simply means “NO”. So it’s sort of on the person being asked the question to really spell it out for a guy .. it’s only fair since the world does indeed give us so many altered meanings of what NO means in this sort of situation.

    “Please leave me alone, you are sort of scaring me” does the job really really well! Once you go there, you put the guy in a position where to keep pursuing starts to cross over into ‘not okay’ behavior, and I believe 99.9 percent of guys will drop it at that point.

  33. Rob,

    The time and circumstances back in the days were much different than today. Girls simply didn’t have enough freedom and independence. There were rules that you have to follow, and the ways respectable guys had to use to get to you. Also, being sexually attracted to a future partner was discouraged for a girl. All of this made situation with your grandparents understandable.

    But this story alone shows why these things might have worked in the past, but are, potentially, questionable today. Like Alee said, male’s persistence indicates a woman has no say in the matter; than her “no” doesn’t really mean “no”, and that she doesn’t really know what she wants.

    Another problem with this persistence is a certain form of chase game, which I don’t like. In other words, all you want is to get the girl. In many cases, you don’t even know her! So why are you so persistent? A woman might think you’re only interested in her looks (since you know nothing about her), or that you only enjoy the chase and that you’ll lose interest once you get to know her/once she agrees to date you/have sex with you.

    Now. I know many people, male or female (well, at least females in my culture do) use persistence, but it shouldn’t be done in such a straightforward way. What I’m saying is, if you are in the same circle of friends, you can try hanging out with the person you’re interested a little more. So maybe things would change. My mother’s good friend used this to get her man (then again, we’re talking about the early 70s here). But by all means, make it about conversation and interests, and not about forcing someone to go out with you by giving compliments and flowers.

    It’s like… I don’t know. Making a person feel like (s)he owes you something. And it’s only one step from that to “I paid for dinner, now you owe me sex” thing.

    I’m just saying EARLY ON, it doesn’t seem to really make that much a a difference if the female is “interested”.

    Wrong. In my experience, whether a woman is interested is a crucial thing, or else there will be no date. Though, admittedly, some women do date guys just because they’re bored or the guy begged so much (so she goes out basically to make him stop). But I wouldn’t advise this to anybody. And trust me, you don’t want a girl going out with you because you were so annoying with your persistence (though, admittedly, it does happen sometimes).

    And I’m just asking, could this very story of two people meeting NOT qualify for the opening of a Jennifer Aniston movie?

    It does seem like a Jennifer Aniston movie; that IS the point (and the problem). It’s not reality.

    Hey, there are lots of… interesting things in porn, but we don’t do them in reality, right?

  34. On the other hand, I do agree with Rob that women are sometimes encouraged to say “no” even if they don’t mean it… But it’s a problem on itself and it sure doesn’t mean a woman’s no shouldn’t be taken seriously.

  35. Rob,

    ‘Totally agree that “No means No”.’

    Okay, then.

    But I don’t think a woman has to say the word “no” for a guy to get the picture — most communication is nonverbal. Sometimes a woman is too nice to just say no to a guy that is coming on to her, or she is afraid of how he will react. But if she walks away from you while you’re trying to talk to her, that should make it clear she means “no.” If she tries to avoid seeing you and ignores you, that should make it clear she means “no.” And then you should stop.

    It’s unfortunate that messages are sent via pop culture that “no” has other meanings besides “no”. But at the end of the day, you’re responsible for your own actions. You can’t blame Jennifer Aniston and rom coms if you’re slapped with a lawsuit for harassment.

    Mira,

    “It’s like… I don’t know. Making a person feel like (s)he owes you something.”

    Loan sharking!

  36. All I know is I’m glad I pushed back and hung in there when my wife of ten years didn’t want to go out a second time. My best friend Steve’s wife turned down his speed dating request after they first met at an event. Somehow he found her online and emailed her and then I think they had over 20 dates until she kissed him. Their daughter just turned four. Anyway you probably won’t convince me that a guy shouldn’t persist IF he thinks the situation warrants it. But I do admit it’s a very complex and multi tiered issue. It is probably both flattering as well as annoying to receive this sort of attention. If you could push a button to guarantee it never happens again would you push it? My female friends all concur that they would never push that button.

  37. Speaking of “persistence,” I’m getting that vibe from you, Rob. There comes a point when you should just agree to disagree and move on.

  38. Bottom line, when he gave Alee that first compliment, he should have been able to tell by her body language and the way she looked at him whether or not she was interested in him. “No” doesn’t always mean “no”, but when paired with “no” body language, it does. “No” body language for a woman is not hard to detect. At all.

  39. Honestly, as a guy I’m kinda of shocked at the stories Rob is telling us here. Why? Because despite the insinuation of a “happy ending” (marriage, kids, etc.) they kind of see like the guy abased himself for a girl that just wasn’t into him, and only gave in after a sufficient amount of humiliation and trial.

    Call me cold hearted (and remember, this is ME we’re talking about) but I don’t think I’d WANT to be with someone I had to convince after 30 roses, 20 dates, and goddamn partridge in a pear tree to be interested in me! I mean, if someone’s not attracted to me, cool beans, and let’s keep it moving. Sure, there are people we WISH would’ve given us a chance, but unless you really think that some random person is your only path to a happy love life, then I can’t see getting upset about it. (And if you do think some random person is your ONLY path to a happy love life, you need to stop reading those trashy romance novels from the super-market.)

    Honestly, I can understand the spirit of Rob’s comments, but I feel in this instance he’s reaching for an issue that just doesn’t exist in this situation. This wasn’t some nerdy nice guy with no game. This was a wannabe player who tried to slam-dunk the wrong woman. Yeah, the situation could be more complex than what’s being told — what situation isn’t? — but ultimately unless you want to COMPLETELY disregard the feelings of one-half of the people involved, then you’ve got to take Alee’s word (like I do) that this guy was a creepster PUA loser.

    All in all, as a nerdy guy who’s alternatively believed to be a “player” (according to my girlfriend) and a “dork” (according to the people I grew up with, went to high school with, went to college with, etc.) I’ve had my fair share of dating experience and most of it has taught me that persistence only pays off for stalkers and serial killers. When someone’s not “in” to you, you changing their mind is not going to end well, if you can even change their mind. And for every story Rob has told us, remember, these are exceptions which prove a rule — and we know this because of how sensational the stories are compared to the reality of dating, marriage, and life.

    I for one hope that the guys (and girls) reading this remember to love yourself enough not to need to convince others that you’re worthwhile like some damn condominium.

    But hey, that’s just me.

  40. Totally agree with Changingmoods and Zek. There’s something very unbecoming about a man needing to push himself so hard onto a woman (or onto a message board of women) to get what he wants or make the point he wants… and I honestly don’t see how Rob’s stories about his wife and his grandparents even relate to what happened with Alee.

    As for men being persistent… well, I can believe in that 75% statistic or whatever it was… HOWEVER, I think the way it’s presented by Rob shows a bit of exaggeration. I’d need to fully see the study to make a judgment, but here’s how I see it.

    On the first date with my future husband, I can admit that I was not attracted to him in the way many people think of attraction. That’s no secret.

    But I was not UNattracted to him either.

    I left the date feeling completely neutral about him… as in, “Well, that was a nice date and I certainly enjoyed talking to him. He’s also decent looking and well groomed and attired.”

    That’s quite a different state of mind than, “I’m not attracted to this guy whatsoever.”

    So, if being in that 75% means that I wasn’t in love or totally attracted to my husband when we first met, then sure, count me into that 75%.

    But that’s a lot different than this they were not the least bit attracted to their husbands when they met … which is a pretty big stretch and something that sounds like quite an embellishment on Rob’s part. “Not the least bit attracted?” I doubt that.

    Anyway, using my example, future hubby called and asked for a second date, and I said, “Sure, why not?” Then when he called and asked for a third date, my response was the same. I was still getting to know him and I was hooked in about 2-3 months.

    BUT, he said himself that if I showed any signs of NOT wanting to go out on the dates at all, he would have gotten the hint and moved on. Not hesitation, but complete disinterest. He understands hesitation. Heck, he was hesitant himself, but hesitancy can be overcome. Complete disgust/disinterest is not.

  41. I’ve been Googling quite hard and I can’t find any statistic (from Brides magazine or otherwise) that matches the one Rob shared with us. Can we get a link, please? I want to take a look at this “study” conducted by them, because honestly anybody can study something and create a statistic, but it doesn’t always mean the stat is correct, or that it means the same thing was they say it does.

  42. Rob,

    “If you could push a button to guarantee it never happens again would you push it? My female friends all concur that they would never push that button.”

    Yes. I don’t want someone assuming I don’t know what I “really” want or that they can somehow annoy me so much that I’ll finally give in. I’d at least like them to give me the credit that I’m not confused and/or weak-willed.

    changingmoods,

    ‘Speaking of “persistence,” I’m getting that vibe from you, Rob. There comes a point when you should just agree to disagree and move on.’

    Lol.

    I’m also a persistent person and I think persistence is helpful if not necessary in some areas of life, such as personal (i.e. not involving other people) goals. But this is not one of those areas.

    You’re always welcome at this blog though, Rob. 🙂

    thatguy,

    “Bottom line, when he gave Alee that first compliment, he should have been able to tell by her body language and the way she looked at him whether or not she was interested in him.”

    Exactly.

    He knew that I wasn’t interested — it’s not like he didn’t know. He just didn’t care because he was only concerned with what he wanted.

  43. Z,

    ‘Honestly, as a guy I’m kinda of shocked at the stories Rob is telling us here. Why? Because despite the insinuation of a “happy ending” (marriage, kids, etc.) they kind of see like the guy abased himself for a girl that just wasn’t into him, and only gave in after a sufficient amount of humiliation and trial.’

    Oh, look at you and your stubborn pride. 😀

    But I agree. Is it really worth it to completely lower yourself for someone else? It’s not good from a self-preservation standpoint, at the least. And, in my experience, if you work to get a person interested in you, even if you “win them over”, they’ll often take you for granted afterwards. Not always, but the likelihood is greatly increased if you grovel like that.

    “Honestly, I can understand the spirit of Rob’s comments, but I feel in this instance he’s reaching for an issue that just doesn’t exist in this situation. This wasn’t some nerdy nice guy with no game. This was a wannabe player who tried to slam-dunk the wrong woman.”

    Right. I understand where Rob is coming from, I do. But this situation was not at all like he is thinking (wishing?) it was. He was not a “nice”, unsuspecting guy who was just trying to get my attention and I just heartlessly humiliated him. No, that’s completely off the mark. I’ll say that much.

  44. Bunny,

    ‘if being in that 75% means that I wasn’t in love or totally attracted to my husband when we first met, then sure, count me into that 75%.

    But that’s a lot different than this they were not the least bit attracted to their husbands when they met … “Not the least bit attracted?” I doubt that.’

    Yes, there at least has to be a neutral feeling there. I just don’t see too many women dating a guy they aren’t the least bit attracted to. Unless it’s in the situations Mira described (bored, pitied).

    Z says:

    “I’ve been Googling quite hard and I can’t find any statistic (from Brides magazine or otherwise) that matches the one Rob shared with us. Can we get a link, please?”

    I’d like to see the statistic as well, if it’s available.

  45. Zek,

    Hey, you know how they say… 75% of statistics you see on the Internet is false 😛 Or something like that.

    But what you described is also important thing to remember. Do you really want to date somebody who wasn’t interested in you? Somebody you had to force to go out with you? True, people are egoistic; they like to be liked, and sadly, there are people (of all genders) who’d accept somebody they’re not interested in just because (s)he made it clear to be crazy about them. Is this a recipe for a healthy, equal relationship? I doubt it.

    Once again, this scenario might have worked in our grandparent’s days, when courtship was more restricted and official. But not today.

    Plus, it make it seem, once again, that women have no say about any of this; that they just have to accept the most persistent guy just because he was persistent. But you also have to ask: WHY was he so persistent? Does he even know the girl? Or does he think she’s pretty, and that’s enough? Sadly, it’s true: persistent guys often chase for the women they know nothing about, which is also a bad recipe for a start of a relationship.

  46. We were engaged for a bit less than a year in 2002. So during that year my wife read Brides magazine. The issue had wedding cupcakes on the cover. I mean it’s not like brides magazine is Scientific America here. Point of the article was this whole notion of “my type” and how so very often women end up marrying well outside their stated “type”. Empirical evidence of surveying happily married friends support the notion and I really encourage readers to conduct their own personal surveys and decide for themselves

    I was in high school when I discovered that I just don’t do well on first dates. Lots of guys have this “handicap”. Perfectly reasonable people who just don’t twinkle at first meeting. So i learned that in my case, if I was truly interested in a girl, I’d have to “work it” a bit to get her to take another look. I guess I’m just the type of guy who “grows” on people.

    All that said what is assumed here is that the persistence needs to be done respectfully and the other person really needs to occur as “special” enough to be worth the social risk and whatever loss of dignity may be assigned I never once regretted times when needed to persist a bit. I thought she was “worth it” and I honestly felt she was basing her current opinion on bad data

    And truth be told many women, not all, but many admit to “coming around” or “warming up” to a guy who didn’t do much for them right away. And that’s why I will have to agree to disagree here with the “standard wisdom” that a womans first “no” is final and pushing the point is bad behavior. Sometimes a guy has to demonstrate how he feels and sometimes the demonstration in itself goes a long way to get her to reconsider. I heard that the guy who built the Taj Mahal did so for just such a reason. I mean this is hardly a revolutionary concept here

  47. Just looked up history of taj mahal. I got it wrong Gawd I hate admitting that

  48. Isn’t Taj Mahal, you know… A mausoleum?

    Point of the article was this whole notion of “my type” and how so very often women end up marrying well outside their stated “type”.

    Dating/marrying to people who are not our “type” is not uncommon. But there’s a difference between that, and marrying someone you weren’t attracted to AT ALL when you first met. People are attracted to those who aren’t their types all the time.

    Also, Bynny’s situation also happens, a lot. But not the way you describe it, no.

    Well, one thing is getting someone to notice you, someone that might not be aware of your existence. But why would you chase after somebody who rejects you over and over again… ?

  49. Yup, Taj Mahal was built after the woman was dead.

    Honestly, I don’t know many, if any stories of this kind. Seriously: most of the people I know, and this goes for my parents, and grandparents, met in quite boring circumstances (by movie standards): through friends, at work, in school, etc.

  50. I should clarify: by “my type” I didn’t mean any one physical type or personality type. I have lots of types. He just wasn’t any of them. 😀

  51. I have a thick Hispanic type, dark skinned long hair athletic black girl type, mildly tanned brunette type, Eastern European with sexy accent type. . . I think asian/oriental is the only type I’m not into, but blasians are amazing. . . yum

  52. Rob,

    Iunno, because sure you can *try* to convince a woman to give you a chance, and maybe she’ll come around… or maybe she’ll freak out and get a restraining order. I mean the fact is you can’t predict another person’s behavior, especially when it comes to dating/love/romance/whatever. That said, I’m of the opinion that besides the somewhat disrespectful nature of ignoring a woman’s clear disinterest there’s also the issue of your own self-respect! Are you really going to argue FOR abasing and debasing yourself in order to CONVINCE someone that they should date you? I mean, sure, make a little romance with a fancy dinner, a gift or two, and lots of compliments, but that is far different than what it appears you are suggesting. Which to me seems to be public humiliation and “fake it till you make it” gestures of awkwardness! I’m sure there are plenty of situations where that’d work, but then again, there are just as many of situations where it wouldn’t.

    And while I’m glad in your personal experience (with your marriage, and those of people in your life) the latter hasn’t been the case, but I’d say you’re attempting to posit your personal experience as representative of a wider world, which is a dangerous thing to do in any conversation. Also, it seems like that stat you mentioned isn’t really going to hold up after all… Brides Magazine seems about as trustworthy as OKCupid in this case. Besides, we all should know that statistics only show correlations, not causations.

    All in all, I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.

  53. I get the sense when I’ve used the word “persist” people get an image in their head that occurs as humiliating, debasing, and disrespectful. I mean, it’s not like I’m suggesting begging for a date here. I considered posting the actual story of how my wife and I got together, and what the actual “persistence” consisted of. I didn’t because it felt sort of like I’ve been rudely intruding on a blog here without being asked, and also because the story will hardly increase my popularity here. I mean, I haven’t even found ONE fan!

    Regarding Brides magazine not being very credible. Agreed. Such is why I urged people to do their own math and come to their own conclusions. I did.

  54. that guy… Lol. Just lol.

    Rob,

    “I considered posting the actual story of how my wife and I got together…I didn’t because it felt sort of like I’ve been rudely intruding on a blog here without being asked”

    Hmmm…? You don’t have to ask or be invited to comment. Once your first comment is cleared, the blog is open to you to comment on whatever you want, as much as you want. Just don’t be hostile or spam and you’re fine.

    “and also because the story will hardly increase my popularity here. I mean, I haven’t even found ONE fan!”

    Yes you have. I’m your fan — Go Rob! 😉

    Actually, I’d be interested in your thoughts on a post I’m publishing tomorrow. You should let me know then, if you’re around.

  55. that guy,

    I thought Eastern European “accent” was considered ugly… Just saying. 😀

    Rob,

    The way you presented the situation (with examples from romantic comedies, etc.), it does seem you think persistence=begging someone to go out on a date with you (if not “annoy them until they say yes”). So if it’s not what you meant to say, I’d love to hear what you’ve had in mind.

    Look, it’s not like I don’t understand what is like to be shy, or what is like when it’s difficult to find a date. Believe me, I know. This is a female perspective, so it’s a bit different, but I’m definitely not one of those people who dated a lot. I’m just not one of the girls that got asked out a lot, (and I was always way too shy to ask a guy out), so yes, it’s a tricky situation. Getting someone to notice you/ask you out was never easy for me; making a guy see me as a female was often a challenge.

    Still, I’ve learned (the harder way) that it’s much better to date people you don’t have to… encourage to like you. For various reasons.

  56. ‘ “Hey, you know you have a beautiful smile. When you smile, your whole face lights up.” I tried not to roll my eyes as I thanked him and got ready to walk away.’

    The PUA technique is inane but I actually thought this was a sweet thing to say before he bombed things…

  57. df,

    Lol. I guess I don’t think any of it when guys say things like that… I’ve been hearing those sorts of things forever. It might be genuine or not, but I know it’s just a line to encourage me to talk to them and/or get contact info.

  58. There’s a difference between what this so called ‘PUA’ did and what PUA and what real PUA looks at. This guy was clearly a poorly calibrated man hiding behind his lines. It is unfortunate that this sort of ‘technique’ or behavior has become so mainstream because even if it does work on some girls, it is nothing but a cheat-sheet for social interaction.

    I want to put in a positive note about the whole ‘pick up’ thing. There is a different community dedicated to becoming the kind of man who actually deserves the women they desire. Instead of spouting bollocks lines, they are encouraged to develop a stronger personality, a love for themselves and love for everyone around them. It is based on the teachings of a company called ‘Real Social Dynamics’ and although some people take it far too seriously, there are much better ideals behind what they do then this Niel Strauss ‘The Game’ crap which has only served to annoy the public and make women uncomfortable.

    Taking messages and programs with these guys I’ve actually focused mainly on taking care of my life goals and truly becoming comfortable with who I am. Comfortable enough to approach women I’d like to meet with something like ‘Excuse me, hi, I thought you were really cute and wanted to meet you, I’m Daniel’. There’s no focus on lines or techniques or whatever, just really becoming confident, nice and happy.

    To the author of this blog, it sounds like that situation was very uncomfortable and he really needed to take a hint. However the treatment you prescribed was probably a bit harsh. The man was most likely not confident enough to just approach a woman and talk to her, so instead of being so abrasive maybe just tell him straight up you aren’t interested and if he is interested in a girl, he should try actually approaching her as himself. Alas he may never have the confidence to approach a girl again.

  59. “Alas he may never have the confidence to approach a girl again.”

    Oh, please. One woman rejecting his horrid approach is not going to scare him off from approaching all women. You guys need to stop acting like all women’s rejections are the be-all, end-all.

    I found nothing harsh with Alee’s response. If a guy wants a woman to respond to him kindly, he needs to approach her kindly.

  60. Hi Dan 🙂

    “There’s a difference between what this so called ‘PUA’ did and what PUA and what real PUA looks at.”

    Is that so? I couldn’t tell.

    “I want to put in a positive note about the whole ‘pick up’ thing.”

    Oh, no…

    😉

    “Instead of spouting bollocks lines, they are encouraged to develop a stronger personality, a love for themselves and love for everyone around them. It is based on the teachings of a company called ‘Real Social Dynamics’ …
    Taking messages and programs with these guys I’ve actually focused mainly on taking care of my life goals and truly becoming comfortable with who I am. Comfortable enough to approach women I’d like to meet with something like ‘Excuse me, hi, I thought you were really cute and wanted to meet you, I’m Daniel’.”

    Well, that sounds great; not PUA-ish at all. Becoming comfortable with yourself, focusing on life goals… that’s what will really help you in the long run, I think.

    Dan says:

    “Alas he may never have the confidence to approach a girl again.”

    changingmoods says:

    “Oh, please.”

    My thoughts exactly.

    Seriously, you guys are so funny responding with, “Oh, that was so mean!” and “He was just trying to talk to a girl he was interested in”… Really, I find it funny. 😀

    You are feeling sorry for a guy who attempted to make a person feel bad about themselves in order to most likely just “score” with them. And you expect me to agree that he was sincere and well-meaning, and do what…self-flagellate? Uh, no.

    Dan,

    “The man was most likely not confident enough to just approach a woman and talk to her”

    I really doubt that.

    He just seemed like a jerk who had no qualms about manipulating to get what he wanted, plain and simple.

    I’m sure he will find the confidence again (if he hasn’t already — he seemed like a well-confident person). Don’t you all worry!

  61. @ “Men” (aka person whose comment was not cleared)

    I thought about approving your comment.

    Then I thought some more. And some more.

    Then I thought, “Nope.”

    Because I generally like for comments to actually address the post or other comments, not some idea the commenter has in their head.

    You sure seem defensive and accusatory. No one is “hating on” PUAs. No one has time for that. (This is a post — people are discussing the topic.) But yes, I’d say they are pathetic. I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings. This is a journal-esque post, don’t take it so personally.

    So try again, either responding to the post or comments, or both, and your comment will be cleared. (Choosing an actual name and email might also help in that endeavor — you’re strong right? So you should be strong enough to identify yourself.)

    If not, thanks for playing. 🙂

  62. Okay, “Men”, I received the comment you sent yesterday — no need to resend the same one. It’s simply not getting approved. You keep commenting on people’s character (in your perception), instead of commenting on the post and/or comments as is stated in the Commenting guidelines.

    I’ll respond to the aspects of your comment which pertain to why your comment wasn’t approved.

    “Haha no im good Alee.”

    No, apparently you’re not since you wrote yet another comment.

    “I wasnt taking it personally at all.”

    Yes… you were. I could feel the heat emanating through my screen from your brain about to explode. I was kind of worried that you were so hurt and offended by a simple blog article. No one should be that invested.

    “Perhaps you have surrounded yourself with people who only agree with you and just block out the ones who dont play along with your rules.”

    Perhaps you didn’t read all of the comments? Half of the comments immediately above are from men who disagree with my handling of the situation (unsurprisingly). I wonder why their comments were cleared and yours wasn’t?… Oh, right, because they actually responded to the post instead of attempting to attack people.

    “You say im defensive simply because i didnt say what you wanted me to say and didnt say it the way you wanted me to say it.”

    No, you’re defensive because you’re lashing out at people you don’t know and making assumptions.

    “This a free world.”

    Not exactly…

    “i dont know, its your blog.”

    Bingo.

    Again, if you’re incapable of responding to the post, then your comments will not be cleared. No matter how many times you send them. You’re not alone: others have suffered the same fate. I’m sure you’ll survive.

  63. Hello Alee
    You seem very judgmental towards MEN who are looking for love. The reason you may find that men have low confidence is because they are single alone and would like something that they don’t have a woman to love and to love them, if you had a little compassion and gave a person a chance you may find that some are great Men & have tons to offer plus once you show them some respect their self respect will grow lots. I guess in your mind it’s just easier to find a man who has it already because they are attached & become a home wrecker eh?

    Some guys are born with the natural ability to seduce women some are more funny some more sensitive!! take the sitcom friends JOE is the seducer does that mean that the other 2 are pathetic? Or should be unhappy & alone forever? I believe that a lot of men looking for tips at PUA are not born with that ability to connect in that way and are looking for some help to deal with this issue they have such as myself I have so much regret in my soul regarding missed opportunities which looking back on it where pretty much sure things is I acted adoringly. The alternative to people looking for help, is for them to do nothing become more and more angry and hateful & become rapists, serial killers or pedos or they simply kill themselves. Which option would you prefer?

    There are more women then men on the planet so I would have thought you would want men to do some homework to step up there “game” and give women what they want, or do you think 1 man should have 10 wives? Women don’t have to approach or really do much but accept or reject. & they have mags, TV shows, website and each other to turn to for help, & that’s cool I want everyone to be happy 😉 But I guess you don’t & you believe some people don’t deserve to be happy? That will send you straight to “hell” so you may want to cut back on the Judging after all the more you judge the more others judge you.

    I would like to know what you think a perfect world would be e.g. (all men killed only lesbians clones in the future or only men with the god given gift of game get to live & they get 10 wives) I hope this message makes you think & you can become a little more compassionate & empathetic towards everyone.

    I just like to say that I think you do have a point when it comes to “some” guys who use PUA methods who use woman & create a negative image of men, & they are part of the problem just as much as mean girls with no compassion. Such as the girl I took out the other night who said I was a bit of a pussy/not pushy enough then asked me if I was gay this was in the middle of nowhere I thought “if I was a dick I would have just left her there teach her some manners” but I didn’t cuz I’m a “nice” guy but looking back I should have thanked her she told me what I need to work on which I am now looking into on PUA sites & how I found this blog.

  64. Chris,

    “Hello Alee”

    Hi. 🙂

    “You seem very judgmental towards MEN who are looking for love.”

    Oh? I don’t really feel any way towards men in general, or men who are seeking love.

    “if you had a little compassion and gave a person a chance you may find that some are great Men & have tons to offer”

    I’m sure they do. And I have all the compassion in the world for men who don’t use gimmicks and manipulation to get what they want.

    “I guess in your mind it’s just easier to find a man who has it already because they are attached & become a home wrecker eh?”

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    “Some guys are born with the natural ability to seduce women…”

    See, this is the problem. PUA (and PUA sympathizers) believe that women have to be “seduced” or tricked into dates.

    If you look up the etymology of the word “seduce”, you’ll see it comes from a word which means “to lead astray; to corrupt”. If you believe that your only option is to manipulate someone into doing what isn’t in their best interest, then that’s a problem. Just a bit.

    “The alternative to people looking for help, is for them to do nothing become more and more angry and hateful & become rapists, serial killers or pedos or they simply kill themselves. Which option would you prefer?”

    I’m sure the only two options aren’t PUA or criminal. Positive of that. There are many other ways a guy can increase his self-confidence or social skills besides PUA.

    “But I guess you don’t & you believe some people don’t deserve to be happy?”

    Again, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    You seem to think PUAs are sincere, well-meaning guys just looking for a chance at love. That may apply to you. But since you’re looking into PUA, I don’t understand how you could possibly believe this about them in general unless you haven’t gone to PUA forums and blogs or seen their videos and books.

    ‘That will send you straight to “hell”’

    Oh well. You know I’m no good anyway, like Amy Winehouse.

    …Wait, are you saying Amy Winehouse is in hell? How awful of you.

    (Confused?… Now you know what it’s like.)

    “I hope this message makes you think”

    It did. It made me think, “What in the world is he talking about?” But I’m slowly getting it, I think. 😉

    “I just like to say that I think you do have a point when it comes to “some” guys who use PUA methods who use woman”

    These are the majority of them. PUA stands for Pick-Up Artists. They are simply modern-day Casanovas (with much less success).

    “looking back I should have thanked her she told me what I need to work on which I am now looking into on PUA sites”

    Wrong strategy.

  65. The parts you did understand
    “I guess in your mind it’s just easier to find a man who has it “winning” already because they are attached (married) & you become a home wrecker eh?” what I am say’n is that women tend to go after other Women’s Men more often then guys excluding (the doosh bags your thinking of) like me who would never try it on with another man’s woman unless they were in a bad relationship & the guy was abusive ect. Doosh bags even wear fake wedding rings because of the husband “snatcher” phenomenon
    This is because Men tend to be more successful when they have a good women “behind every great man is a great woman” you ever seen the film the cooler it’s based on real life. intercourse even makes you live longer, look & feel healthier I don’t know if it’s the same for women but when I got a good person in my life I’m a different person it’s kind of annoying because that makes me want it again which makes me look needy which then pushes it further away … “women have mags, TV shows, website and each other to turn to for help, that’s cool I want everyone to be happy & have recourses to find happiness ( But I guess you don’t) want everyone to find love or even make love lol e.g. guys that look for help & you believe some people don’t deserve to be happy (guys with no game should not look for tips) ?

  66. chris,

    “what I am say’n is that women tend to go after other Women’s Men more often then guys”

    Hmmm. Maybe. I haven’t seen any real numbers on this. In my experience men just as often like women who are taken.

    But I don’t know why you’re assuming I’m one of these women. I really dislike people going after those who are already in a relationship. I have lots of stories about that.

    “you believe some people don’t deserve to be happy (guys with no game should not look for tips) ?”

    1) PUA is not the only way you can improve your “game”. There are lots of other resources which can help you to naturally and actually improve your confidence and social skills (but I will not do your research for you!)

    2) You don’t need to have “game”, in the popular sense of the word, to get women. Sure everyone is helped by some confidence and experience, but you don’t need to have a “scheme.” Just be yourself. Plenty of women like geeky men or shy men, as I mentioned above. Plenty of women like modest men. The guy I’m talking to now is the one of shyest guys you’ll ever meet, but I think he is wonderful.

  67. Wow, I did not realize things were bubbling over here!

    The thing that seemed obvious to me in the story that Miss Alee told is that this freak was NEGATIVE. He could have rolled up and said “That top is a nice color on you”, “I am loving this great weather”, any number of nice or neutral things. But as far as I’m concerned, he’s a loser because he was negative. It especially annoys me because I already feel men hold women to a physical standard they can’t meet, so any little criticism of physicality really makes me want to slap them! (Okay, perhaps I’m a little sensitive ….)

  68. Sherry,

    I just occasionally get comments on this post from PUAs/PUA supporters. Nothing to see here. 🙂

    The guy used a negative strategy because that’s what he’d learned via PUA. Which, as mentioned, is a complete fail with any self-respecting woman.

  69. Thanks for the quick reply & this blog by the way. You seem very passionate regarding this whole PUA thing is it simply from some guy saying you have Something in your eye or is there more to it ? You say that PUA tricks don’t work but why are you so concerned about something that doesn’t work? The truth is that it is very sad that it has come to this where guys are so disconnected to what women want and women are so judgmental & complicated that PUA is a big industry and women buy the latest issues of Cosmo to find out how to get what we all want, it sure smells like another $ pit ..

    Don’t forget there are lots of slutty girls out there happy to be gamed, loved and left who would actually be upset if there was less PUAs to come pick them up & as long as the “bad” PUAs pick up these girls no1 gets hurt ?..very sad in deed but that’s the way it seems to be. unless???

    Alee you said “Wrong strategy” what would the right strategy be?? For someone such as myself I have great social skills look good, thin have a good heart, funny but just not that macho I guess, I have balls I stand my ground and all that it’s just I am soft spoken & not that “pushy/frd” with women, can get a bit nerves last date said sorry way to much & sensitive don’t like disrespect! The date last weekend was not the 1st time a girl asked if I’m gay but other people are like “you seem 100% straight” it’s only girls around my age or younger who have asked, it’s happen like 5 or 6 times for maybe 2 years. I even called love line with Dr. Drew & asked them, Mike said that’s how he met his wife.

    It even happened after I made physical advances last time she was joking a bit but I was not impressed & she could see (I was like “what the F”) I felt so gutted & wounded because it’s not the 1st time. So what’s the deal this some lady joke that dudes don’t get some NEG tactic in the female arsenal. That was the 1st time on a date, a new low. The other times were just randomly like on the street or on the bus & it was with-in 1 min of starting to talk. Why would someone want to know that info unless they wanted to sleep with them or they simply knew they are not gay but want to hurt them intentionally? The only reason anyone would need to know that is for only 1 reason & 1 reason alone. But I’m guessing women are smarter then to ask a guy they want to get with “are you gay”??

    Why do girls tend to go for guys that treat them bad and why do nice guys finish last? If nice guys finished first this blog would not be here because PUAs would not exist & who is responsible for the nice guys finish 1st or last? So in the end who is really responsible for the whole PUA phenomenon.

    Most guys that get into PUA are really bad with girls it seems the worst they were the better PUA they become they have good intentions then they get good at it & it becomes a completion & into the sort of thing you don’t like. Guys don’t really want to ask for help and if they have the ability already they will be happy& lazy and not really see the need to improve, so a PUA is not normally a ladies man from the beginning but sometimes get very good & go crazy with these new skills like a kid going away to college and partying all the time with their new freedom. After all they have to make up for lost time.

  70. chris,

    “You seem very passionate regarding this whole PUA thing”

    Lol, I’m passionate about everything (yet oddly calm). I don’t really care that much about PUA though, except thinking its more than a little misguided.

    I definitely don’t care about the guy mentioned in this post and he was not the first to try that “negging” strategy with me.

    ‘You say that PUA tricks don’t work but why are you so concerned about something that doesn’t work?’

    I never said that. I said they don’t work on self-respecting women (and/or women who aren’t already looking to hook up).

    “you said “Wrong strategy” what would the right strategy be??”

    Work on truly increasing your self-confidence and presence. PUA methods are only a band-aid. And a very ineffective one, for what you are looking for.

    If you’re everything you say you are, then you just have to work on your presence. I personally don’t mind shy guys at all (guys with low self-esteem is a different story, however). But I know some women do, so if I were you I’d focus on increasing my confidence in approaching women in an open and respectful manner.

    “Why do girls tend to go for guys that treat them bad and why do nice guys finish last?”

    Because The Nice Guy™ usually has more pressing problems than his niceness.

    “Most guys that get into PUA are really bad with girls it seems the worst they were the better PUA they become”

    Can’t say I agree with that.

  71. wow. this is sad.
    I did a lot of “research” on PUA right after I divorced (5 years ago) and was very interested in the different attitudes of the “gurus” out there. most seem to be about building actual confidence in men. very few seem about actual pick up lines, per se, and some concentrate on the “neg” thing.
    During this time frame, I was seduced by a very confident guy who did the “neg” thing. it was unbelievable….he could’ve taught a class (but he was NOT a PUA in the conventional sense because it came naturally to him). I dumped him after a very short time, but we are still friends and I am very interested in his “way with women” – he KNOWS women and how to seduce them.
    the guys who use the PUA stuff really need it. they are the men who completely lack confidence and have no idea how to even have a conversation with a women. I usually act with complete compassion when someone tries to approach. I almost never put up the bitch shield. I just think it’s kind of mean and sometimes I just think to myself “this guy needs a boost, maybe he’ll get a little confidence from this interaction.” However, in this case I do not know how I would’ve reacted since I wasn’t there.
    I believe that there must be a correlation to attachment theory here….as a side note, it has occurred to me that guys who get laid very early in their lives (early teens) seem to have a “way with women.” it’s like they get an early shot of testosterone and therefore confidence when it really counts…just an empirical observation….
    Alee! this blog is worse than facebook (and way more fun!) as a totally engaging time suck!! I have to get out of here…..but I can’t stop!! your topics are all very very interesting to me!
    thanks!!! (I think!) 🙂

  72. miki,

    I am compassionate with people who lack self-esteem. But I don’t think this guy didn’t have confidence. I mean, it could have been a ruse, but I generally have a good handle on people’s personality. And he seemed like a guy who just had too much security in his ability to manipulate women to his own ends like a puppet. He looked like one of those guys that play the villain in movies.

    “Alee! this blog is worse than facebook (and way more fun!) as a totally engaging time suck!!”

    Lol. But of course, that was my intention: to keep you all here for eternity. 🙂

    Please, feel free to peruse more topics. Any work you have can wait (or you’ll become a habitual multi-tasker, like I am).

  73. I know this post is old, but I have just recently found this blog and wanted to leave a comment.

    You should have not responded to him talking to himself the first time. I think it was TOO obvious he was trying to get your attention then. If you hadn’t looked in his direction he probably would have tried a more direct approach at which time you could have yelled out “FREEZE, dont EVEN think about it.” Talk about throwing someone off their game. He would have never expected it. He’d be left with a What-the-Fuck moment.

    PUA prey on most peoples courtesy. Its like if someone says “Hello” to you they try to bind you into the obligation of making a response. When someone compliments you they force you to accept it with a “thank you”. I personally do neither because for 1) I don’t know the person and don’t like random people talking to me for no reason and 2) I dont care too much about social graces in the first place.

  74. osufirecracker,

    ‘PUA prey on most peoples courtesy. Its like if someone says “Hello” to you they try to bind you into the obligation of making a response. When someone compliments you they force you to accept it with a “thank you”.’

    Yes, they do. Lots of guys do this –greet you or compliment you in order to force you to speak to them– even those who don’t know about PUA. It’s pretty irritating. I tend to give them a half grin and continue on my business.

    “I personally do neither because for 1) I don’t know the person and don’t like random people talking to me for no reason and 2) I dont care too much about social graces in the first place.”

    Lol. They probably think “How rude.” If they’re a PUA they’d think, “Beautiful Woman Syndrome/B*tch Shield”.

  75. I’ve read through both of your posts on PUAs and in my opinion the human factor is a little lacking. PUA more often than not is manipulation, but lets be honest here. How much of human interaction is self serving and manipulative? It’s almost as if you’ve painted a silly caricature of the big mean men hunting out these innocent little defenseless women to manipulate. Both sides, men and women, at least on the planet I live on, are daily manipulating each other in the dating scene. Ive read through the comments sections and I can’t help but notice how some of these posters will talk so lowly of the PUAs by calling them unattractive losers who are trying to pull beautiful women down to their social level, when they should “stick to their lane”, as if we live in a caste system. Seems more like the beautiful women are more insulted by the indignity of having someone she percieves as her inferior dare to step out of line in an attempt to mate with her than she is upset over someone using manipulation in the dating world. “How DARE he try to manipulate me! I don’t get manipulated, I DO the manipulating!” PUA is really silly, but I can’t blame someone for trying to get a piece of the pie in any way they can whether the person be male or female, yelling at a dog for being a dog is quite ignorant.

  76. Jack,

    “I’ve read through both of your posts on PUAs”

    Good.

    So you already know I’ve heard this all before.

    “…and in my opinion the human factor is a little lacking.”

    Interesting.

    “PUA more often than not is manipulation, but lets be honest here. How much of human interaction is self serving and manipulative?”

    It’s one thing to unknowingly manipulate and it’s a completely separate thing to plan to manipulate, knowingly manipulate, and feel self-satisfied at your manipulation.

    I agree, let’s be honest here: PUA has manuals, lists, and forums dedicated to their practice. How many of these other fallibly human manipulations you’re thinking of come equipped with these?

    “It’s almost as if you’ve painted a silly caricature of the big mean men hunting out these innocent little defenseless women to manipulate.”

    Big and mean? More like silly and misguided. Innocent and defenseless is a bit of an exaggeration but not completely off the mark. Many of the women have no idea that they’re part of this “game” and thus have no way to navigate it.

    “Ive read through the comments sections and I can’t help but notice how some of these posters will talk so lowly of the PUAs by calling them unattractive losers who are trying to pull beautiful women down to their social level, when they should “stick to their lane”, as if we live in a caste system.”

    If that’s your interpretation then that’s fine but I don’t think that’s what was meant by the comments.

    What commenters were saying is that it’s ironic that many PUAs get into the “game” because they believe the dating hierarchy is bad and evil and they’ve had bad luck in dating because of it. Yet PUA is based on the dating hierarchy: it would fall apart without it. PUA attempts to make regular guys into “alphas”, ignores most women for the “beautifuls”, and grades women on a numerical scale. So the commenters are saying, “Oh, hierarchies are only bad when they disadvantage you?”

    “PUA is really silly, but I can’t blame someone for trying to get a piece of the pie in any way they can”

    And you can’t blame others for not wanting to be involved in another person’s attempts to get a piece of the pie.

    “yelling at a dog for being a dog is quite ignorant.”

    See above. You seem to think it’s okay to judge people for judging (PUA)… And not okay to judge PUA. Which is hypocritical and actually doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

  77. It’s been really insightful reading this plus many of the comments below. I’ve had situations almost identical to your drugstore incidence. From a girl’s perspective….pua is flawed!! Not to mention very transparent and pua has gotten so mainstream that most women will spot it.

    The neg this guy used…probably comes from the pua theory that a beautiful woman is used to compliments so switch it up and fault her slightly. This makes you stand out she’ll be dying to prove herself to you. WRONG. Approach a woman like normal people have been doing it for thousands of years..casually and kindly. The neg should be saved for later dates where instead of fawning over her and handing over your man card on a platter, you can playfully tease her. That’s harmless, won’t make you needy, there’s no I’m-a-cocky-player.

    I understand though that guys put themselves out there and rejection is hard. In the dating game it is the guy that puts himself out there atleast initially. The problem is some really lack confidence, some are not very comfortable in social situations, neg body language etc. So they look to pua. But pua only gives them tactics and lines to fake confidence and false ideas of what an “alpha” is. It’s more like ‘say this and she’ll find you irresistible’. Resulting in you getting laid.

    The only plus points about pua is it may teach a guy confidence if he was lacking it, and maybe a few body language and dressing tips. These are good things that translate well even for a guy’s business or professional life. BUT directly using pua to game women is slightly lame and won’t work. In my opinion if a guy is just interested in being successful with women…he’s better of watching a few movies (romcoms, action, whatever) and just take notes on how the guy engages in conversation during the first meeting and initial dates. Conversation skills and not just a sleazy line. Would be a lot cheaper than what these pick up artists probably charge.

    Just my take 🙂

  78. Hey Andrea (the 2nd… there is another Andrea!),

    “I’ve had situations almost identical to your drugstore incidence.”

    Huh, interesting, very interesting… 🙂

    “pua has gotten so mainstream that most women will spot it.”

    Hopefully they will!

    “The neg should be saved for later dates where instead of fawning over her and handing over your man card on a platter, you can playfully tease her.”

    I don’t think picking on a person’s (real or imagined) flaws is ever a good thing. Especially if you’re a man just dating a woman… it’s bound to make her insecure. A lot of women won’t show it but they don’t enjoy people teasing them about their body parts, weight, clothes, etc. How about just no.

  79. Probably a bit late on this, but as someone who’s been on both sides of the issue, technically (gay man and straight woman), I have seen this used on me and it usually fails fantastically because I am one of those bottom-feeding “betas” everyone seems to hate, with low self-esteem.

    You want someone really bad? Lower your standards. I love geeks and am a chubby chaser. Now, that isn’t most people’s preference, but I have to tell you that if I were bothering with any sort of “game” (which is distasteful to even type here) I would realize that I have virtually zero competition. They’re really sweet guys, who are passed over by people with better-looking-than-thou women and ‘alpha’ men complexes because they aren’t considered the image of perfection. Believe me, someone 20 lbs overweight is way better than someone who has to manipulate you into paying attention to them, and would probably end up being abusive. I’m more than happy to date them (though aforementioned preference for such people helps), because they are genuine and I never have to worry about getting “negged” or being a “target” in some “playa”‘s little mind games.

    If a guy ever uses negging he doesn’t deserve time or getting laid. It’s a con artist tactic and should be treated as such. I’d rather get a very mumbled and nervous, “Hi, I’m [insert name] and I just wanted to talk to you or exchange emails.” than some half-insult designed to con people.

  80. “As for men being persistent… well, I can believe in that 75% statistic or whatever it was… HOWEVER, I think the way it’s presented by Rob shows a bit of exaggeration. I’d need to fully see the study to make a judgment…”

    Indeed. For starters, consider how many marriages in the world are arranged marriages, and how many of *those* are *forced* marriages…

  81. I think that you didn’t do your research right. What you have encountered is a beginner in the world of PUA. Most men who are involved in that world are introduced by the book ”The Game” and they first try what’s in it. It is an old school method that started it all. Some men will see it works and others won’t. The people who sees that it doesn’t work will try to understand why it didn’t work and will try other ”techniques” as well. They will search for knowledge on how to better themselves based on what works best for them. The community has evolved since that book first published because men has realized that there are problems with the classics. Did you know that there is a whole variety of styles? And one of them that has become more popular recently is NATURAL game which is based on how to better yourself which will make you more attractive.

    I for one first started with the old school game that you have encountered and it helped me understand how flirting and interacting with women works from AtoZ. I tried to continue but having a script didn’t worked for me so I move on to an other direction to acccomplish my goals.

    You see, this hole community is not just about seducing more women (but surely it is a big part), it’s also about reaching your goals in life and becoming a better person. AKA Self-developement.

    What you have encountered was probably a beginner trying to hard.

    To ends this, I have three questions for you:

    1. Do alot of men that you have never met before come to talk to you on a certain basis?

    2. How many male friendsdo you have?

    3. Did you ever wondered if any of those male friends ever wanted to date you but were too scared to ask you?

  82. lastman you said,

    “I think that you didn’t do your research right.”

    I think I did fine, thanks. If you have unbiased sources (not your opinion) that show PUA in another light, I’d be glad to see them.

    “What you have encountered is a beginner in the world of PUA.”

    I keep reading PUAs say this. So willing to dismiss your brethren as a “beginner”. It seems whenever a PUA doesn’t get his goal (the woman/night with the woman), he is dismissed as an amateur.

    “You see, this hole community is not just about seducing more women (but surely it is a big part), it’s also about reaching your goals in life and becoming a better person. AKA Self-developement.”

    I fail to see how this is helping men become better people. Surely there are more benign ways towards self-development.

    “To ends this, I have three questions for you:

    1. Do alot of men that you have never met before come to talk to you on a certain basis?

    2. How many male friendsdo you have?

    3. Did you ever wondered if any of those male friends ever wanted to date you but were too scared to ask you?”

    I’m actually not that interested in answering these questions, but I will say that if a guy is interested in me, he should approach like himself. Not with gimmicks. I hate gimmicks and even “lines” make me roll my eyes; I can’t take such a man seriously. That doesn’t mean I will date a guy who approaches me without lines, but using them moves your chances to zero. On the other hand, being shy, geeky, or what have you can be a plus. Most of the men I’ve dated have been shy, geeky, or introverted.

  83. Hey … This is too all of the people ( men and women who have this “hater” attitude towards all this PUA stuff. Look men and women are both insecure and very often when that cute guy or girl comes over and makes your day its because he or she had three friends behind them egging them on and often physically pushing them forwards…. To say that a nice fairly attractive man who have been brutally dropped time after time by women he has cared about simply because in today’s society men are often raised by women and lied to by them… maybe lied to is to strong a word but it may as well be true… in this case all this man has done wrong is he has complied to all of the women s request …… eg.. opening doors.. gifts … doing what ever she want’s ect.. ect… and they have taken the gifts and compliments waded with their ass in the butter and then just left …. Why because they are unfulfilled and un happy and i can not blame them … but spare a thought for this man who cared deeply about each one and was just behaving how he truly felt was appropriate ( because of how he was raised … yes this does apply more often to the nice guy type ) ladies most of you will never know what it”s like to chase to give to provide and then to be rejected on some strange emotional level you don’t even understand…. you can un knowingly be near evil in your tearing down of the nice guys on this planet….. …. yes men are bad and we get angry and we are violent and dumb raawr raawar… what flippen ever yes we are … but the few nice good men are standing less and less of a chance …..

    How can you blame these men for asking … why ? … why ? are these women taking from me and then just walking away feeling nothing for me… and when someone gives them the answer you say noo…. just stay as you are easy to play and bendable to the will of women who will never love you..

    When men miss use this then yes it’s bad ! but the naturally attractive bad boy u take home that one night plays all the same games …. plays all the same tricks… but when a nice guy makes an effort to become the kinda of man who can both care about and satisfy women … the macho men’s knees shake because they know the time of the caveman is almost over… and you yes you emotionaly constipated pretty little things with your head half way up your own ass… just give people a chance have a conversation with a man who came up to you and say ” how much does a polar bear weigh “… and I promise you that i will surprise you how many good men just use this as a way to conquer the nerves of the possibility of having their heart smashed over and over again…

    both men and women can be cruel it may be fair to say women are only so because they have to be… and I think in a way that’s true but in this modern world good men exist and having your guard up is good but macing him in the face ( metaphorically ) just for talking to you is about as cruel it gets and o I think if both men and women try to relate to each other’s feeling more and at the very least show some respect to the opposite sex…. men have been guilty of this forever but now it goes both ways… just keep that in mind.. and every one learn to play nice… but not too nice 😀

  84. That’s a really interesting topic here. I enjoyed it (and learned from it) a lot. Thank you Mira, Alee, Rob, Bunny, and all the others.

    I have a few sticking points though.

    To Alee:
    Alee said about the drugstore event: “He knew that I wasn’t interested — it’s not like he didn’t know. He just didn’t care because he was only concerned with what he wanted.”

    First thing I have to express here is this: do you really think men are that good at reading body language, especially in an emotionally intense circumstance such as “first time meeting this hot woman”? No, they are not good at it! That’s why it is important to verbalize it to them when you’re not interested. Make it simple: “No! I am not interested!”. As Rob said, that works 99% of the times.

    The second thing: DID YOU CARE about what HE wanted?! If you didn’t, why should he have concerned himself with what you wanted?! It may sound rude, but it’s perfectly reasonable: why would anybody concern themselves with what you want when you don’t care about what they want? The guy was just expressing his interest, the best way he knew about it. He couldn’t have known you had a boyfriend or he wasn’t your type!

    Other than that I agree with you that the guy was a manipulator, just because he was phony and totally not straightforward about his intentions. What was that about the crusty eye anyways?!?!? Jesus! The funny thing is that by being manipulative himself, he allowed you to be phony too (at least until the moment you put the guy into his place).

    Bottom line: guys! express your interest in a direct and honest manner! women! if you’re not interested just say so, don’t assume he gets it or worse, don’t play the guy on a string (that’s manipulation too by the way)!

    To Mira:
    Mira said: “But you also have to ask: WHY was he so persistent? Does he even know the girl? Or does he think she’s pretty, and that’s enough? Sadly, it’s true: persistent guys often chase for the women they know nothing about.”

    I have to put a considerable question mark over your logic here, no offense intended. As a guy, I think being attracted to a woman is enough reason to pursue her and express my interest in her. How on earth am I going to find out more about her, if not by pursuing her into spending time with me?!

    I (and there’s so many others like me, trust me) am not attracted to women at my workplace or in my friends group. So I have to totally disagree with the concept of meeting people “accidentally”, “through friends” etc. It’s not working. In my opinion, women who won’t go to a date with the “random” guy who approached them on the street (yes, because they thought you were pretty) are seriously limiting their pool of suitable mates.

    A few words about persistence and manipulation.

    I used to go out to clubs a lot. Every guy and every woman reading this is probably very familiar with the “I have a boyfriend!” line. Sometimes it’s honest. A lot of times it’s just a mind game women play (isn’t this manipulation?!).

    Anyways, in my early days of clubbing I would approach women, get rejected by “I have a boyfriend!” and then watch how 30 minutes later the same girls would hook up, make out or even take “random” guys home. I was shocked! It took me a while until I realised that I have to be persistent and oblivious to what women say in these circumstances. Yes! Persistent and oblivious to what women say! Of course, with a decent dose of common sense…

    What happened next? Just a short example. I met this attractive woman in a club. She said she had a boyfriend. I disregarded the comment and kept going with my conversation/move. She brought the same comment a couple more times during our first interaction. We eventually met at a later date and hooked up. After a few dates, after I slept with her for the first time, I teased her: “so you like cheating on your boyfriend, eh?” Her answer: “Well…I just wanted to make sure you really wanted me!” If that is not PERSISTENCE that she was reffering to, then what is it? If her mind game was not MANIPULATIVE, then what was it?

    In my experience, women love PERSISTENCE, as long as they are interested/attracted to the guy. Isn’t that funny? Only if they are attracted….
    So, my advice to guys would be: be persistent, it is your duty! Things may go your way or you may bang the wall with your head. If the latter happens, but don’t be dissapointed. It’s still the only way for you to find out if she’s interested or not (and eventually get the girl you cherish for)!

    To Alee, who was commenting the nice compliment she got from the guy before he bombed the situation: “I guess I don’t think any of it when guys say things like that… I’ve been hearing those sorts of things forever. It might be genuine or not, but I know it’s just a line to encourage me to talk to them and/or get contact info.”

    So I take it you’re the kind of woman who likes to be approached by “Hi! I find you attractive, let’s hook up and have crazy sex soon!” or derivatives of that? I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m actually a fan of this approach 🙂

    @Jack

    Great post! I especially liked this part: “Seems more like the beautiful women are more insulted by the indignity of having someone she percieves as her inferior dare to step out of line in an attempt to mate with her than she is upset over someone using manipulation in the dating world.”

    It applies to my current situation perfectly. I’m currently residing in a small canadian, provincial city (originally coming from a big european city) and the reactions I got from many women around here are mindboggling. Since I’m not an army guy, or have big muscles or wear a lumberjack shirt and a baseball cap (hahaha) I don’t really fit in the “hot guy” stereotype of most women around here. So I’m used with getting all sorts of angry replies, like “how dare you be so confident and approach ME, a hot looking woman. do you know what guys I am dating?!” Hahahah. The solution for guys in similar situations: move somewhere else where you’re appreciated and/or stop caring for those hotties that don’t appreciate you when they meet you.

  85. lo,

    “First thing I have to express here is this: do you really think men are that good at reading body language”

    It’s not about body language. If a person doesn’t talk to you when you talk to them, walks away in the middle of a conversation…it’s obvious they are not that interested in talking to you. This is basic human knowledge; requires no thinking. Unless you’ve Asperger’s or some other social disorder that prevents you from understanding.

    “The second thing: DID YOU CARE about what HE wanted?! If you didn’t, why should he have concerned himself with what you wanted?! It may sound rude”

    It doesn’t sound rude, it sounds nonsensical…

    Clue me in again on why I should care about what a total stranger wants or likes? Do you personally often expend time and mental energy into figuring out what people you don’t know and don’t want to know, are interested in?

    I’m a stranger to him, thus he doesn’t have to care about what I want…unless he was trying to get something from me, which he was: my attention and interest. Otherwise we could’ve both go on our merry ways not caring about what each other thought and that would have been totally fine. 😉

    I don’t think your club/I have a boyfriend example really means too much. I think it’s fair (in every sense of the word) to say that if someone says “no,” one, twice, or thrice, they mean it, and you shouldn’t try to force them against their will. Even if you were “successful” in your endeavors, suggesting that it’s good practice to ignore a woman’s several times denial of you is in poor taste and a slippery slope.

    “So I take it you’re the kind of woman who likes to be approached by “Hi! I find you attractive, let’s hook up and have crazy sex soon!” or derivatives of that? I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m actually a fan of this approach”

    Don’t be silly (I was going to use another phrase, but since this was your first comment, I’ll give you some time to wise up and read the blog guidelines 🙂 ). I explained my position thoroughly in the preceding comments, which you read, so you know where I stand.

  86. Io,

    In my experience, “I have a boyfriend” lie is more along the lines of: “I don’t want your advances” than an invitation to try more. I don’t think persistence model is a good one, and it often fails to give good results. True, sometimes, it “works” in a way a woman does go out with your or has sex with you, and in the world of double sexual standards, it may seem like the guy “won”, but my own views on the thing are different so I don’t see it that way.

    I think men fail to understand what a girl who agrees to go out with you after persistence really feels and thinks. In most cases, she’s attracted not to the guy, but the idea that she’s wanted so much a guy would humiliate himself to be with her. Most women are not into this at all, but yes, there are some that are. It makes them feel more powerful and in the control. Because the guy is essentially a doormat, no matter what he thinks, even if he believes he’s winning: nine times out of ten in this situation, the girl doesn’t go out with him because he’s won her attention, but because she enjoys to have someone who’s her doormat. Pity sex sometimes results from this, but like I said, I don’t see it as a guy’s victory, because I think women enjoy sex, too, so she’s essentially getting both a doormat and sex.

    But I know this isn’t how men see things.

    As for the part you quoted, I think I wanted to say it’s strange to me for someone to chase after a random person so persistently. There are hundreds of attractive women out there, so why don’t you leave the ones obviously disinterested alone?

  87. @Alee

    I have to agree with you about walking away from the conversation signal. That’s non-verbal communication too. And a pretty obvious message. I guess we men actually get that one. Well…most of us.

    I’m not saying you should care about what a total stranger thinks or wants, but you also shouldn’t expect the stranger to wonder about what you think or want. Even if the stranger is attracted to you… There’s no point consuming himself with thoughts about what’s going on in your head. His only duty should be to make the approach (honest one, no negs lol) and express his interest, while your duty would be to honestly reply to that proposal 🙂 That’s how I imagine a sincere interaction. No room for thinking about what’s going on in the other’s head. It’s just time wasting and counter-productive.

    @Mira

    I disagree on you disagreeing that persistence is a model that gives results 🙂 If you were right, half of us would have never been born!

    It’s funny that you suggest guys “humiliate” themselves by wanting the girl too much… But hey, I’ve had some “you’re too eager” rejections myself, so I guess it’s just one of those upside down reasoning that you women do (haha, don’t hit me). The kind of reasoning that make us men shout we can’t understand women! I mean…why would you be more interested in a guy who hits on five different women than on the guy who’s there just for you? I guess there’s some deep down evolutionary circuitry involved…

    I like your doormat theory, but in my experience doormats don’t have enough balls to be persistent or go for what they want. They would just go out there and be pleased with anything that hooks up in their net. I have no respect for these kind of “men”… but hey, as you said it, there’s women who get their juices flowing for these kind of guys…

    I agree with the awkwardness of persistently pursuing a random woman, but that wasn’t what I meant. I meant that the world would be a better place for everybody if women would give “random” guys a chance. After all, it takes some balls to go out there to and tell a random chick you’re interested.

    Eventually, yes…guys should stop terrorizing women that are not interested! But for god sake, let them know that!

    Sorry for the “ballsy” message.

  88. Io,

    I’m not saying you should care about what a total stranger thinks or wants, but you also shouldn’t expect the stranger to wonder about what you think or want.”

    If the stranger wants something from me, then they should care. If they don’t, how would they expect to get what they want?

    He doesn’t have to contemplate it for hours, but obviously if you’re wanting to get know someone you’d be interested in what they like, what they don’t like, etc.

  89. Haha, can you imagine the countless possibilities?! Isn’t it simpler if a guy just expresses his interest, then you reciprocate (or not) and THEN you get to know each other? I mean, do you expect a guy to wonder whether you want a relationship or a fling, whether you like chinese food or Big Macs or you listen to Lady Gaga or Madonna?! If he does that, by the time he makes up his mind, you’ll be in the next bus!

    You know, the number one reason why guys find so hard approaching women is because they do exactly that: they think too much about what the woman may think or want. As I said, that is counter-productive.

  90. Io,

    Read carefully: the word used in your original quote of me was “care” not “figure out” or “know”. Caring about what someone wants is different from knowing. Switching those words make a world of difference in this context.

    Unless of course you’re simply trying to twist what I originally said into something else and you’re one of those who are more interested in pushing their viewpoint than they are in actually understanding the other side…

    Anyway, I spend about 2-3 rounds in a debate, then I’m finished. And I think I’ve said what needs to be said to understand my point of view so I’m finished. 🙂

    But you just reminded me that I should probably do the Types of Men I’ll Never Date post, in addition to types I will date. One for sure will be — “The Argumenter”. Lol. So thanks for that.

  91. Io,

    I can argue for days, but I have a very low tolerance level for pseudo-scientific/Darwinian nonsense. I don’t believe women are “one way” and men are “a different way”, and I don’t believe into the whole “Women are from Pluto, men are from Saturn” (or whatever crap). So if you’re going to argue the “deep evolutionary” things – especially when it’s clear you don’t know what you’re talking about – I’m afraid I won’t be able to discuss things with you any longer.

    Sorry if I seem dismissive or patronizing; I just really, really hate that shit and I don’t have any patience for it.

    That being said, you seem to equate “success” with “having sex”. (Why else would you say “half of us would have never been born”?) I guess the problem is on the level of respect. The way you put it, men have to do all it takes to get sex. How dare those women not accept random men on the street? And if they do “get” sex, it’s seen as a success, because what other might a man want in an interaction with a woman?

    The main problem here are double sexual standards. If women were allowed to have sex as freely as men are, none of this shit would exist. Sex wouldn’t be tied with respect (or lack thereof). But as long as double sexual standards in society somehow tie sex with woman’s value as a person, there won’t be truly free sex. This is one of the reason why sexism hurts men, too, and not just women.

    This would make the world better place and it would eliminate all the problems we were talking about. But as long as a woman’s value is (at least partly) connected to her sexual choices, and as long as people are unable to respect a woman regardless of her sexual choices, this isn’t going to happen.

  92. Babe, you didn’t meet a PUA. You met a R-AFC. You didn’t really “win” anything, but if it makes you happy you taught that young man never to underestimate a woman and overestimate a tactic. The way you sounded, the guy you met was using crutches (A.K.A. canned material, the learning material, already created to be used in training for R-AFC) so when one didn’t work he kept repeating it until it did. Not a good one either. I do give you a high five for spotting him, you’re one of the informed few. If someday you do find a PUA, you won’t spot him so easily.

  93. Also, opinions are like noses, everyone has one (except Voldemort), Anyway, what i’m trying to say is, you can keep your feminist defensive opinion about PUA or you can actually learn more about it. The rule is to respect women, however, the game is a tool like any other. One can use it to self improve himself or to use it in wrongful ways. Just like Alfred’s Nobel dinamite. If, after you’ve learned more about it, you still want to keep your opinion, fine, i won’t stop you. Remmember though that someday you might meet a wonderful man that wants to make you happy and he managed to reach you thanks to his PUA training. See the movie “Hitch”, you’ll catch my drift.

  94. Ricardo,

    “Babe, you didn’t meet a PUA. You met a R-AFC.”

    I’m not your babe, but that’s what they all say: all the failures are not actually PUAs, but something else. I imagine if he had succeeded, you all would be singing a different tune.

    “You didn’t really “win” anything, but if it makes you happy you taught that young man never to underestimate a woman and overestimate a tactic.”

    Who said I was trying to win anything? That’s the problem: you all approach male-female interactions like a game to be won.

    “If someday you do find a PUA, you won’t spot him so easily.”

    Right, of course. Because a “real” PUA can’t be spotted. If he can be spotted, then he is not an actual one. This circular logic is so circular.

    “Also, opinions are like noses, everyone has one”

    You’re quite the example of this, I must say.

    “Anyway, what i’m trying to say is, you can keep your feminist defensive opinion about PUA or you can actually learn more about it.”

    Somehow I knew the word “feminist” or some allusion to it would be in this comment, and you did not disappoint.

    In any case, I’ve read about PUA and known about it for years. And I think I’ve learned all I need to: actually, you and other PUAs have nothing to teach me. I’m more interested in being a decent, open-handed individual.

  95. Alee I just read your post and this guy seems like he is just a “player” or whatever which is cool for him but I think you’re a bit harsh on the guy, especially when you said that you would have taken a picture of him. I think you should have just felt sorry for him because to be honest you’ve probably never met him again which means he caused no harm to you. Just my opinion you seem like a cool opinionated person just go easy on some guys.

  96. Hi David,

    Nope, I don’t think I was too harsh. 😛

    If his “negging” would have worked, then we would singing a different tune now. I guess that’s what I’m thinking about when I make posts like this: some woman could’ve been hurt. If the guy was hurt, then I think that’s his own fault. He could just not try to run “game” then he wouldn’t have to worry about that.

  97. This post is spot on. I see products/services like this book being peddled all of the time on the internet. It is debasing for all involved, well except for the debaser who is most likely making some nice profits from the sale of these very negative products. The men who are manipulated into purchasing these products are moved to hurting others. Even if the use of this technique somehow results in a relationship it will have a foundation that is inherently rotten. The strongest relationship will grow between two people who are genuine and honest, most definitely not through negativity and manipulation.

  98. An ‘artist’ is one who may continue practicing their ‘art’ and therefor they may not make the best relationship material.

  99. Hi my name is Tafari,

    (Warning: , i have piss-poor grammar, my excuse is my major is Biology)

    I was just travelling through the internet and i saw this topic so here I am to share my two cents. From my own personal experience as a 19 year old young black man,I have seen stuff somewhat similar to PUA in the young black male community(hip-hop community especially). I think young black males can have a sort of natural “game” ,which entails being somewhat cocky and bad-boy type a bit(thanks to the media typecasting the black man as macho, and self-assured ).We (Young black males) don’t really use NEGS but definitely will be playful and definitely flirtatiously tease the girls.What alot of rappers call “SWAG” is just having self-confidence, and being assertive. What PUAs calls being “alpha-male” we call just being “cool/dope/being a G” not caring what others think about us, not being needy, being a leader ,etc.

    Though I will admit things get tricky sometimes when we go after girls of a difference cultural group then our own. I for instance go to University in a predominately white-populated county in the Southern United States, so last week at Whataburger I watched a black guy trying to “game” some White girls, and I think he scared em’ off a bit…lol. He was kind of loud, and dressed kind of “urban” whereas, the girls he was trying to “game” were like white college girl types. Didn’t work out much, they kinda laughed everything off that he said, and he left, after their quick conversation ended. I was just watching this hilarious situation, until the girls gave me a shout-out by calling me “Fine Shawty in the black jacket”(some kind of joke?). I didn’t respond and left with my friends but anyways…lol..

    Sorry for the tangent, I’ll have to finish my treatise(…lol..) when I come back, but i gotta wake up for class so
    -Peace

  100. Well that might very well work with lower class girls or dumb young women. You don’t have anything else that any other kind of man have except maybe a higher risk of you bailing out when there’s a baby involved.

  101. I’m always as nice and sweet as one can be alee.

    No need to puff up their inflated unearned ego more Alee though. They got enough unearned cheerleaders that will follow them over the cliff like lemmings

  102. Hey! I resemble that remark! My inflated ego is most certainly well earned! I had to do all sorts of my own puffing to get it there. One thing you have to watch out when inflating your own ego is that the psi isn’t too high, otherwise you may just pop your ego and your head along with it.

  103. It’s so weird hearing a chic break down PUA stuff and is actually accurate with it.

    I read through the comments and there’s a lot I agree with and disagree with but it’s unfortunate I discovered this post late.

    Oh, and by the way, I’m a PUA (instructor).

  104. Hey again,

    Thanks Froggie (I love that movie on your display pic secretly..;) ) But yea, I can see where Nkosazana is coming from, my biological father was like this and he definitely turned out to be a dud in the family department.But something about being a bad boy is almost irresistible to girls my age. Especially within the African-American girls on my campus. I suppose by a certain age(maybe 25+?) women grow out of that and want a family man/caretaker. I think the reasons why girls like the Bad boys is because they have traits have that Nice guys just dont possess. Bad boys are usually direct about their intentions and won’t try to “befriend” the girl he likes, like a nice guy would, who after being “friends” with this girl for months tend to spill his guts out to a girl who didn’t even know he liked her. Bad boys are generally confident, but secretly they may have some insecurities, while nice guys tend to be lacking in the confidence department. Bad boys will not put the girl they like on a pedestal, and worship her like she’s Venus incarnate. Of course women want to be treated with the upmost dignity and respect, and the Bad Boy may do this at first, but it’s only a little while until his insecurities make him lash out at his girlfriend. Also something that I have noticed is that nice guys just don’t tease or flirt with girls enough.

    -Tafari

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