Since the Pew Research Center published their 2012 report on recent interracial marriages in the United States, the country has been abuzz with more news of the ever-increasing rise in interracial marriage. Most people and articles on the topic take a clearly positive view of this increase, claiming that rise in interracial marriage indicates that the United States is moving forward, towards becoming a society where race and ethnicity are less of an issue.
Between the fact that nearly 1 in 6 marriages in 2010 were between members of different ascribed races and our black/mixed president of interracial parentage, surely no one can deny that the United States is becoming a post-racial society, if it hasn’t already become one?
Except some people, such as myself, don’t think it’s that simple. Behind the overall increase in interracial marriage lurks some noteworthy data, data which seems to contradict the idea of the United States as a place where racial stereotypes are decreasing in importance. And besides all the positive aspects of a rise in interracial marriage, is a less prejudiced society really one of them? Can interracial marriage alone eradicate racism in a society founded upon racial thought? Judge for yourself:
1. Interracial marriage is not equal between genders
As most people recognize, interracial marriage rates tend to be quite skewed by gender — men and women of the various races interracially marriage in different proportions. Newlywed marriages echo these stark differences: not much has changed.
Following previous patterns, Asian women and non-Asian men married at more than twice the rate that Asian men and non-Asian women married in 2010. The difference between the interracial marriages of black men and non-black women and black women and non-black women is the same — black men married out at more than twice the rate of black women.
So while there was an overall rise in interracial marriage, long-held differences in gender remain. But these numbers also show another, just as important difference…
2. The increase in interracial marriage is mainly among those with already high interracial rates
What all the positive discussion about the rise of interracial marriage seems to leave out is that the growth in interracial marriage is mostly reflective of an increase among those with already relatively large interracial marriage rates. Others remained the same or even decreased.
Interracial marriage among Hispanic men and women rose slightly in 2010 to over a quarter, closing matching earlier years. Interracial marriage among black men, however, rose nearly 2 percent from 2008 — the largest increase of any ethnic/gender combination. A small percentage at first glance, this addition equals nearly 1 in 4 newlywed black men. This is over three times as much as the growth in interracial marriage for their female counterparts, at an increase of 0.5 percent.
Asian interracial marriage surprisingly saw noticeable declines in 2010, with both showing about a 3 percent decrease. In fact, the only population with an increase which was fairly equal among the genders was white men and women.
Now, what does this all mean? For starters, it suggest that the increase in interracial marriage doesn’t mean an increase for everyone. But also that the rise in interracial marriage may mean not the dying away of racially motivated thinking and racial barriers, but a strengthening of them: Differences in interracial marriage in 2010 closely follow those that can be seen in years, and even decades before, only in larger numbers.
So, is the overall increase in interracial marriage a “good” thing? In most areas, yes. But does it show a great change in America’s racial climate? Not as much as we are led to believe.
What do you think of the increase in interracial marriage over the past couple of years?
See also:
- The Rise of Intermarriage — Pew Research Center’s report
- Yet Another Interracial Online Dating Study
- Colorblindness and Other Myths About Interracial Dating
aloftyexistence 
Ok, let’s cut the crap here: since we all know which group is racist in the most strict sense of the word (not racially biased – that can be anyone), isn’t whites the only ones we should monitor here? What’s their IR rate? Is it changing? Is it equal between genders? Which group whites favor for the IR? Etc.
I believe I read somewhere that white women are actually the group who is least likely to enter in an IR marriage. There are many IR marriages with white women simply because there are many white women in the US. But when you look at percentage, it’s small.
On the other hand, while I don’t really buy the whole IR marriage = racism free zone, I do think the level of mixed marriages can be indicator of how race, ethnicity or religion is perceived in a country.
Allow me to use an example that is close to home. In former Yugoslavia, there were many mixed marriages. It’s estimated they made between 15% and 20% of all marriages. That is high, especially concerning the fact not all areas were ethnically mixed (you didn’t have much chance at meeting a person of different ethnicity at some places in the country). I believe the percentage is even higher, given the fact many people identified as Yugoslavian and not based on their ethnicity (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, etc.)
Now, this high percentage of mixed marriages mean that most people were either mixed themselves or had someone in their close family who is mixed (note that we consider our aunts, uncles and cousins to be close family). Not ALL people, but most of them. Seriously. This is why the war was truly a civil war between brothers, which makes it even more tragic in a way.
Nobody wants to admit that now, since it’s (more or less) a huge no-no between people in the former Yugoslavian republics to speak of themselves as brothers or the war as a civil war, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s exactly what it was. Mixed people were in a bad position to choose a new identity for themselves, and most did it without a problem (not all though – not yours truly, for example).
Still, it doesn’t change the fact there are so many mixed people in the former Yugoslavia, and while it seems silly/paradoxical to speak of it this way now, this high percentage of mixed marriages does prove there was a high acceptance among people – something you’d never guess now, after all the horrors. But it was there, and while it wasn’t the same for all the ethnic groups, it sure proves something about Yugoslavia that not many people want to talk about now. (I do believe it was completely gender balanced, which is a plus).
In contrast to this, US seems to be far behind (in terms of general ethnic acceptance). I do think the higher percentage of mixed marriages do speak positively about a nation, though the best situation in this regard would, obviously, be the one where nobody sees themselves and their partners as members of an ethnic group first, but as an American first.
And speaking of which, THAT one might be even better indicator of the race relations and racism in the US. How many people, and of what ethnicity, identify simply as American? Are there more and more people in the US who see themseleves as simply American? Less and less? What is their ethnicity? Are these numbers changing?
I’m not sure why anyone would think that interracial marriage would decrease racism. In my experience, because I have dated IR almost exclusively since I began dating as a teen, people who pretend to be “open-minded” and claim to be “colorblind” ALWAYS show their true colors when they find out that you are dating a handsome man of their ethnicity. I have even experienced this with women who regularly dated men of my ethnicity. I find that extremely puzzling.
Also, I have 2 female relatives who married White men back in the 70’s (when it wasn’t “cool”) and they are still married. Both couples have gone through a LOT together. Funny thing is, the people who tried to pull them apart only succeeded in strengthening their bonds. According to them, the people who were racists then are racist now. Racist are just more subtle today, since it’s not as acceptable to be “openly racist” “these days”.
Marriage is between two individuals, not society at large. They outlawed IR marriage more than a hundred years ago in most of the United States, because it had become a “problem” for racists. Individuals were falling in love and getting married, and did not care what the racists / “society” thought about it, even waaaaay back then.
As the saying goes, “the more things change, the more they stay the same”.
Well, the logic about IR dating and decreased racism makes certain sense, because segregation is definitely a sign that something is wrong. You can be friendly to other groups and have great business relations with them, but as long as you’re not willing to share your life and procreate with those of other races, that is a bad sign. So lack of IR (or any form of mixed marriages) in a culture is definitely a sign that this culture is racist (or with ethnic hate, etc.).
The opposite isn’t true, however. Just because people marry those of other races and have children with them doesn’t magically make them non-racist.
Still, a low percentage of IR marriages is always a warning sign, but maybe the important is the way IR unions are seen. As long as they are seen as a big deal/controversial they can be as high as 50% and the culture will still be racist.
Mira,
“Ok, let’s cut the crap here”
Lol, I wouldn’t say whites are the only racist ones. I do believe blacks, Asians, and mixed Hispanics can be racist, especially toward each other. Intraracism is a bigger issue than people give credit.
“isn’t whites the only ones we should monitor here? What’s their IR rate? Is it changing? Is it equal between genders? Which group whites favor for the IR? Etc.”
I don’t think they are the only ones that should matter. The stats for non-whites give us a more well-rounded picture, especially when you compare them to each other and compare them gender-wise.
Stats for whites in 2010:
Men: 9.5 percent of newlyweds married interracially – an increase of 0.5 percent
Women: 9.4 percent of newlyweds married interacially – an increase of 0.6 percent
So they’re roughly equal in proportion. White women were slightly less than white men in the 2008 report, but they’ve evened out. Of course this is only taking into account one year of new marriages.
Whites interracially married with [white…] Hispanics most, Asians next, and blacks third.
“I believe I read somewhere that white women are actually the group who is least likely to enter in an IR marriage.”
In this report white men, white women, and black women are approximately equivalent for least, with black women being the very last by 0.1 percent less than white women.
“THAT one might be even better indicator of the race relations and racism in the US. How many people, and of what ethnicity, identify simply as American?’
People do identify as American, but while in the country more with ethnic group/race. (“American” as used in the U.S. usually means “white American”, you know, the default group…) However, when Americans visit another country or leave the U.S., then they’re more likely to identify as American before black/white/Asian, etc. At least IME.
But it can be confusing because American is not exactly an ethnic group, so that may be at least part of the reason why most people don’t call themselves “American”…
I remember I met a girl and she said she was half French. I said, “Oh, really? What’s the other half?” And she shrugged and said, “Just American.” I was thinking, “American what? What American?” I assume she meant white American, but looking at her, she could’ve been part Puerto Rican-American, Armenian-American, or Native American!
I guess one day American will become an ethnicity (or not), but for now it’s more of a nationality. However, yes, some people whose family has been in the U.S. for generations do identify as American.
Anyway, that was a lengthy aside. 🙂
People, don’t have to identify with their ethnic group… I mean, again, look at Yugoslavia. Many people used to identify as Yugoslavian (which would be equivalent to American). Sure, it didn’t end great, but well.
I do think all races can be racist, but your average Joe’s (or Tyrone’s) racism is not what’s most important here. Sure, for the well-being of their marriages it is, but for the bigger picture, it’s important to see if racism is dying out on a larger scale, and whites are still the ones who control the most things. And I do believe that people not wanting to enter in IR marriages is a bad sign, though yes, obviously, one shouldn’t forget about non-whites and their attitudes towards IR.
Andrea says:
“I’m not sure why anyone would think that interracial marriage would decrease racism.”
Mira says:
“Well, the logic about IR dating and decreased racism makes certain sense”
Only on a very surface level. Clearly racism is nuanced, and a person can be racist against one group of people and not towards another, or racist towards one gender of a race and not the other. Or racist towards a certain group but exclude certain people of that group (e.g. their partner) as “different” from the rest. Or racist towards their own ascribed group and not to certain others!
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Andrea,
“people who pretend to be “open-minded” and claim to be “colorblind” ALWAYS show their true colors when they find out that you are dating a handsome man of their ethnicity.’
Hah, yes, this seems like a somewhat common experience.
—
Mira,
“maybe the important is the way IR unions are seen. As long as they are seen as a big deal/controversial they can be as high as 50% and the culture will still be racist.”
I’m thinking the increase in interracial marriage won’t continue up to >50 percent; it will probably begin to taper off after a certain percentage.
If it doesn’t, and the current trends continue, the smaller groups percentage-wise (namely blacks and Asians) will just get absorbed into the larger (white) population. Then we won’t have to worry about racism because there wouldn’t be many races in the U.S. Problem solved! Lol. 😀
Mira,
“I do think all races can be racist, but your average Joe’s (or Tyrone’s) racism is not what’s most important here. Sure, for the well-being of their marriages it is, but for the bigger picture, it’s important to see if racism is dying out on a larger scale, and whites are still the ones who control the most things.”
The thing is, there is no way we could look only at the interracial marriage rates of whites and derive any really meaningful picture about the racial environment of the U.S. For one, there are many reasons why a white person would marry a non-white person and one of them could be racial stereotypes.
I don’t think racism is all about who is in control/power. Groups with relatively less control can be racist towards each other, and the effects of this on the individual and society will be felt.
I guess that’s the vantage point a lot of people are coming from: are whites intermarrying at a higher rate? But if the interracial rate for say, black men, rose to 70 percent does that mean racial thoughts and stereotypes have been eradicated? Or that they’ve become more entrenched or changed form?
Mira, you are being very US centric. Been spending too much time in the circle jerk blogs that are US race blogs, where everyone gets off jerking pretending there’s no personal responsibility in this world and living in a pretend world were people of colour means something at all. It gains validity with the occasional female Asian hand reaching in and grabbing hold of a black dick to jerk it for him. “SEE! SEE! People of colour stands together!”. While in fact they would ignore what other people do to them to get more validity.
First time I was called a dirty k wasn’t from a white person. It was from a Indian. Granted I was young enough to not really know what it meant to be a K.
Americans can delude themselves as much as they want that non whites hold a special love for black people, but that comes from their privilege, yes Americans blacks are the most privileged blacks in the world in just being born in America, if they use the full extent of that privilege is another thing. They have the privilege to not be weary of other people than whites. And frankly, barely that nowadays. They don’t have to beg Chinese, Indians or Arabs to get work.
They don’t have to literally suck a Chinese dick to get that job in the textile industry that the Chinese man would usually save for a fellow country woman since he thinks black people are lazy but are happy enough to enjoy the tax benefits.
Might not decrease racism, but the children of these unions if they happen to love both of their parents might help to decrease it since they probably respect both sides and can bring people together. While people who identify just one way might help keep the status que. *Shrugs* but I don’t know how that would work in America. Every side seems to strive for supremacy.
I thought the topic was US situation, not IR relationships around the world. the topic itself is US centric.
That being said, I don’t know much about situation in America, so nobody should take my comments on this as a fact.
^Right, it is US-centric, because it’s only about interracial marriages in the United States. Things might be a little different if we were talking about another country.
But it’s not like (all) non-whites believe that other non-white groups are in perfect harmony. Some people know, and others know but they still try to put it on white people, as the center of all ill feelings between ethnicities of people.
“Clearly racism is nuanced, and a person can be racist against one group of people and not towards another, or racist towards one gender of a race and not the other. Or racist towards a certain group but exclude certain people of that group (e.g. their partner) as “different” from the rest. Or racist towards their own ascribed group and not to certain others!”
~Alee
I come across, online mostly, a lot of Black men who despise Black women and feel we are preventing them from being successful by being successful ourselves. And that’s similar to the way they feel about White men, BUT they worship the ground White women walk on, even the racist ones. *shrugs*
It’s very strange. Frankly, I think it’s nuts!
“The thing is, there is no way we could look only at the interracial marriage rates of whites and derive any really meaningful picture about the racial environment of the U.S. For one, there are many reasons why a white person would marry a non-white person and one of them could be racial stereotypes.”
~Alee
This is so true. My current boyfriend’s uncle (he’s White) married a woman from Taiwan (mail-order bride situation) because he thought she would be docile and submissive. But one night, about 6 months after they were married, they got into an argument about something (not sure what) and he hit her and she had him arrested. He tried to have her deported, but because of his abuse of her that just made his legal problems even worse. An abused women’s group in their area helped her get full citizenship and she no longer has to be married to him. So it totally worked out…. for her. Lol. This was several years ago, but the uncle still whines about how he was “used to get a greencard”.
I hope this decreases racism. But I don’t think it will completely decrease racism in this country because let’s face it, America is traditionally a racist country. I think it is good that interracial relationships are on the rise because it shows that people are trying to get over racism.
As for the article about racism. Racism today is more subtile. As a 16 year old, I have to watch people’s actions to see if they are truly racist. Back then, people were openly racist! Now it isn’t cool to be openly racist anymore but they can hide it in the way that they act, talk and think. And I am not talking about only White racists but racists in other races, ethnicities and cultures.
Andrea,
“My current boyfriend’s uncle (he’s White) married a woman from Taiwan (mail-order bride situation) because he thought she would be docile and submissive. An abused women’s group in their area helped her get full citizenship and she no longer has to be married to him.”
Well, looks like everyone got something out of that marriage: he, a wife (albeit for a short time), and she, a citizenship. Now that’s what I can a win-win! Lol.
‘This was several years ago, but the uncle still whines about how he was “used to get a greencard”.’
Oh, how awful. 😉
—
Adeen,
“I don’t think it will completely decrease racism in this country because let’s face it, America is traditionally a racist country.”
Agreed. America is going to have to come up with a better solution to racism than “Let’s all marry each other and have mixed kids!”
“I think it is good that interracial relationships are on the rise because it shows that people are trying to get over racism.”
I guess you could conclude that. OR you could conclude that people are getting deeper into racism, especially when interracial marriages are a lopsided as they are.
Take for example, Andrea’s boyfriend’s uncle; if a bunch of white men went and married Asian brides from overseas thus increasing the interracial rate, are they really getting over their racial stereotypes [about Asian women]? Or reveling in it?
People seem to forget that interracial relationships can be influenced by what they are believed to be erasing: racism.
“People seem to forget that interracial relationships can be influenced by what they are believed to be erasing: racism.”
~Alee
I co-sign 100%. Every IR relationship (I’ve witnessed) that ended both quickly and badly ended because their reasons for being together had more to do with racial stereotypes than with who they were as individual Human beings. In most cases, both parties had racial issues they needed to deal with before trying to have a relationship with anyone of any ethnicity.
Alee, do you know where I can get raw numbers for the Pew Study? I’ve been looking but can’t find them. I think the raw numbers would really make sense of what this new study actually means.
For instance, black men’s interracial marriage rate is up, but if there are fewer black men getting married, this just means that the increasingly small number of black men who do marry end up with non-black women. Also, as more Asians enter the country and it becomes more likely for them to meet other Asians to marry, it’s not surprising that their interracial marriage rate will drop a bit.
I’m sorry to burst anyone’s bubble but the mixed race ‘heaven’ that so many AA’s/progressives seem to be yearning for already exists in Brazil, and the reality for the mixed race majority is more like hell.
Here’s what happened: when slavery ended in the late 19th century the white portuguese slave owning elite feared the black majority population of former slaves so much that they came up with the clever solution of importing hundreds of thousands of poor whites from europe especially portugal and actively encouraged racial mixing to ‘lighten the black race’.
The result: the majority of ‘black’ brazilians are a barely black triracial mix of black, white and amerindian, with no strong racial identity. The white elite still rule brazil as they have always done, finding that a majority population with no strong racial identity easier to control.
The mixed race majority live in a country where they are still 3rd class citizens to this day, with many avenues of work, education, finances closed to them, whilst their culture, music etc is appropriated by the white elites who continue to feed off of them.
Hi Jamila,
“Alee, do you know where I can get raw numbers for the Pew Study? I’ve been looking but can’t find them.”
I don’t know where to find these, and the omission of them is pretty glaring. I’d expected them to be in there somewhere, but nope. I looked for them elsewhere as well but had no luck. I was thinking of calculating it from the number of people surveyed (~850,000) and the percentage of each gender/ethnic combination in the U.S. but there are obvious reasons why that might end up inaccurate.
As far as the percentage of black men marrying, we’ll probably have to wait on the Census for that one. I’ve read about the recent Asian immigration and it seems plausible that it’s affecting the interracial rates. 3 percent is a significant drop (and almost identical one for both genders) from just two years ago.
Kat,
“I’m sorry to burst anyone’s bubble but the mixed race ‘heaven’ that so many AA’s/progressives seem to be yearning for already exists in Brazil”
Lol, you’re not bursting anyone’s bubble over here.
What does “AA” mean in this context, “African-American”?
But thank you for bringing this up… I don’t want to always be the bearer of bad news, so I’m glad the commenters can be sometimes. 😀
You’re right, what we see in places like Brazil and parts of the Caribbean and other islands is what happens when you mix interracial relations with unaddressed racism: more racism, and colorism. The problem is not solved, it just takes on a new, more complex form. People are partitioned according to their apparent likeness to whatever the “ideal” form is.
It’s like putting a bandage on a compound fracture… failure doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Alee,
yes AA stands for African American, and I’m happy to be the one that tells people the unpalatable truth in this instance.
Unfortunately there’s been a lot of ‘post racial’ fantasizing going on in the online world whilst history shows that the reality for minority groups that drop the ball in this way is very very grim.
“Unfortunately there’s been a lot of ‘post racial’ fantasizing going on in the online world whilst history shows that the reality for minority groups that drop the ball in this way is very very grim.”
~Kat
Who I choose to date and eventually marry and have a family with will not be dictated by politics and fear. If your only reason for choosing a man is his complexion and phenotype you should not be surprised if things go badly; this goes for couples who share the same ethnic identity, as well as those who do not. As far as what has happened in Brazil, the same has already happened here. Louisiana’s creole system is just the most blatant example.
If anyone is “fantasizing” it is those who fail to see what is right in front of them. Whites, and every other ethnic group, regularly appropriate African American music, slang and cultural distinctions. They even get plastic surgery to gain high round butts, fuller lips, etcetera — things that are quite common and natural to people of Africa descent (things that were once ridiculed by the same ethnic groups so eager to gain those attributes now).
The other similarities between the USA and Brazil are more subtle, because in the USA you can turn on the TV and see people of African descent, but most (especially women) are still portrayed as stereotypes, not fully formed Human beings. In a way, it’s worse than not being portrayed (and demeaned) at all.
Most “bi-racial” children in the USA have a Black father and White/Hispanic/Asian mother. And many of these children do have serious racial issues, mostly to do with being abandoned by their only connection to their “Black” side of the family. And even in cases where they do have their father in their lives growing up, some develop a severe complex about being part Black (ex: Tiger Woods). Based on my observations and conversations with “mixed” friends, this is usually the result of one or both parents expressing their dislike of “Blacks” and things associated with “being Black” — which in the USA, thanks to the ABC’s (Acting Black Crew), means pretty much anything negative. I actually know a mixed (Black /White) man who had to go into therapy to get over both of his parents racism against Blacks, because it literally drove him to a nervous breakdown and attempted suicide at 19!
I also know “bi-racial” people who are completely comfortable in their own skin, and don’t feel that they need to choose between their parents, or by extension the White side or Black side, because they understand that both of their parents are equally a part of them. So, obviously, raising emotionally / psychologically healthy children of mixed ethnicity can be done and has been done, but only by those who are emotionally / psychologically healthy themselves. At this point, in the USA, it’s a parenting issue, not a mixing ethnic groups issue.
The one thing that Black Americans fears and hate more than anything else is mixed race people. Seriously I don’t even know why you are so afraid, people say they ain’t but they cling with the one drop rule desperately but like to complain VERY loud when mixed people are put forwards as beautiful black people. Reap what you sow. No wonder why there’s so many confused Halle Berrys and Paula Pattons in America.
Andrea,
One correction:
“Most “bi-racial” children in the USA have a Black father and White/Hispanic/Asian mother.”
Americans tend to think black/white when they think “biracial”, but the vast majority of “biracial” children in America are actually White/Hispanic or White/Asian. The issue with the former category (White/Hispanic) is that many of them identify as just white or are seen as white, because their Hispanic parent is usually also of majority Euro ancestry (I wonder when they’re going to include that fact in reports like Pew). So their numbers are probably even higher than are reported.
A friend of mine falls into this group and though he identifies as Hispanic, most people assume he is white, particularly Jewish. That’s actually how we became friends because I so thought he was Jewish and he was like “Everyone thinks that. I’m not Jewish… I’m not white. I’m Cuban!” Then when I asked “…Why do you have an Irish name?” He added, “Oh, my mother is Irish.” LOL.
But good point about there having been large groups of mixed people in the United States, like the Creole. And also not so far back in history when there was a large portion of mixed people (1/2, 1/4 or less African descent) in the black American population who were categorized as simply black. Both of these seriously exacerbated colorism in the larger community, which remains firm to this day.
Grace,
“The one thing that Black Americans fears and hate more than anything else is mixed race people.”
Why do you think that?
When people say this, I think it’s so off because black Americans have traditionally been the first ones to accept mixed black/white people as “their own”. Actually, from day one, mixed people have been one of their own because of the One Drop Rule.
But it isn’t only or mainly black people enforcing the One Drop Rule. The reality is, whether you’re mixed with black, Asian, or anything else, if you look similar to people of a certain race, most Americans will see you that way. It’s just simpler for them that way, I guess. Mixed people mess up America’s foundational binary race classifications.
There may be some acknowledgment of a person’s mixed heritage, but “mixed” as a sole categorization tends to be reserved for very ambiguous people. Vast majority of mixed people fall into the “Basicallys” — Basically Black (Halle, Barack, Thandie), Basically Asian (Daniel Henney, Russell Wong), etc. That may change in the future, but that’s currently how it is, in simple terms.
“like to complain VERY loud when mixed people are put forwards as beautiful black people. Reap what you sow.”
This doesn’t mean they dislike or hate mixed people. It means they dislike the system that sees anything less black as better than.
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@ Kat, I don’t really see many black Americans dreaming about this mixed paradise. Lol.
“One correction:
“Most “bi-racial” children in the USA have a Black father and White/Hispanic/Asian mother.”
Americans tend to think black/white when they think “biracial”, but the vast majority of “biracial” children in America are actually White/Hispanic or White/Asian. The issue with the former category (White/Hispanic) is that many of them identify as just white or are seen as white, because their Hispanic parent is usually also of majority Euro ancestry (I wonder when they’re going to include that fact in reports like Pew). So their numbers are probably even higher than are reported.”
~Alee
I was actually responding to the fear mongering comments made by Kat regarding Black and White mixed “race” people. She is, apparently, concerned about Black people having children with White people. Especially Black women with White men, based on her remark, “Unfortunately there’s been a lot of ‘post racial’ fantasizing going on in the online world whilst history shows that the reality for minority groups that drop the ball in this way is very very grim.”
Online, it is primarily Black women discussing interracial relationships as a positive. Black men have ALWAYS HAD interracial relationships, because there was no stigma for them (at least from other AAs). And I did mention Tiger Woods, who is half Asian, 1/4 Black and the rest White and Native American, but is still expected to see himself as primarily “Black”.
I’ve dealt with MANY African Americans who think the way Kat does (or pretend to), and I understand the pupose of it. It’s a game for many… I know it very well. I usually have this mess dumped on me by Black men who exclusively dated/married White and other non-Black women! I’ve become very attuned to people who are trying to control my life, and the lives of African American women in general. Since demanding that we live our lives as they see fit isn’t working anymore, the smart ones have gone subtle. I specify AAs because other people of African descent don’t stigmatize IRR to the same degree, even though they tend to be less “mixed” to begin with than AAs.
It’s somewhat amusing, although it demonstrated a level of ignorance that is anything but. Folks like Kat are literally everywhere. And when their brand of “logic and reason” fails to move you, they start the name calling. “Sell out” is particularly popular. Or they try dredging up slavery and Jim Crow as to why BW (but not BM) should never date/marry someone non-Black. It’s just so desperate! But they will NEVER say these things to your face, if your WM partner is there. No, they have to get you alone, or else say it online. Cowards!
Frankly, I believe that if the ignorant around me are upset about how I choose to live MY life and who with, I must be doing something right. I only worry when people like that agree with me.
Andrea,
don’t dump your projections on me. I simply cited historical evidence to point out the direction that American society is going in. You know nothing about me and my dating history or preferences. I get it that many black women who date inter racially in the U.S are attacked to the extent that maybe your paranoid reaction is a kind of instinctive self protection, but trust, I wasn’t attacking your dating choices as an individual.
What I was doing was responding to the original premise of the post which was about the whether as so many dreamers out there in internet land think, that increased inter racial marriage equals increased racial harmony. Evidence across a wide variety of historical periods and cultures says no.
In my opinion it doesn’t bode well for black society or the growing mixed race population themselves because whether you like it or not,how you are treated in a society is dependent on the power you wield in that society. Blacks wield little enough power now and the projected changes in demographics due to the growth of a larger mixed race population with weaker and weaker ties to a black racial identity will only make things worse.
We are looking at a future full of ‘cablasian’ types who reject blackness, and aspire to escape to a higher status whitness. Such people won’t be looking to defend the rights of black people or advance their goals, and in such a climate black people will be even more vulnerable than they are now to racist attack.
“Andrea,
don’t dump your projections on me. I simply cited historical evidence to point out the direction that American society is going in…..
In my opinion it doesn’t bode well for black society or the growing mixed race population themselves because whether you like it or not,how you are treated in a society is dependent on the power you wield in that society. Blacks wield little enough power now and the projected changes in demographics due to the growth of a larger mixed race population with weaker and weaker ties to a black racial identity will only make things worse.
We are looking at a future full of ‘cablasian’ types who reject blackness, and aspire to escape to a higher status whitness. Such people won’t be looking to defend the rights of black people or advance their goals, and in such a climate black people will be even more vulnerable than they are now to racist attack.”
~Kat
Is this not fear mongering? Lol. As far as your personal history goes, I could care less, since there are plenty of racist people who have and do date/marry inter-racially. I know quite a few personally. For me, it’s the equivalent of saying “some of my best friends are ___.”
My remarks were based solely on what you wrote, not assumptions about your personal life, which is irrelevant to me (based on my experience with others who make the same statements).
What I find most odd, is that African Americans seem more afraid of losing power with a man who is biracial and considers himself Black (and has an unmistakably Black wife) in the White House. The people who voted him into office (mostly White — they are the majority) didn’t do it because he was part White, they did it because they believed he could change things. That’s why I voted for him too.
People both “Black” and “White” have been anxious about the consequences of “mixing” imaginary “races” since the end of slavery. Do you see any benefit to all this hang wringing, other than more racism based in the fear of power loss? Because I sure don’t.
The people who are racist will, in all likelihood, remain racist. Those who are not will, most likely, do the same. As far as what the future may bring, only God knows for sure.
I agree with Andrea. Kat comes from a place of fear and anger. What I’ve seen most Black Americans do get fearful and angry whenever the subject is take up.
Alee, I get that from all the things that Americans write. Lots of anger and fear. And people gets angry when people do it some other way. Sorry there’s no other way to describe it. People who consider themselves mixed are looked down up on. There’s a undertone in most comments about mixed people from black people from what I’ve seen. I haven’t seen what white Americans thinks but probably no less angry and fearful. Or maybe they just don’t care I don’t know.
And I agree with Andrea, for the welfare of the children and their physiological health, they should be taught to be mixed from two places or they are going to get very very confused when both sides reject them. That’s what Halle Berry and Paula Patton are, they are confused and tries to make up for their lack of being fully black by going into black over mode 300%. You have posted yourself about Paula’s pandering and how she has beaten her loser husband over the head with her being black.
@Andrea, I guess because I thought Kat doesn’t live in America (and isn’t American?), I didn’t read the statements in that context.
—
Grace,
“Kat comes from a place of fear and anger. What I’ve seen most Black Americans do get fearful and angry whenever the subject is take up.”
Again, I don’t believe Kat lives in the United States. She may be American by birth/citizenship, but I don’t recall that either. She may clarify for us, if she wishes.
“Alee, I get that from all the things that Americans write. Lots of anger and fear.”
Well, the internet is a special place with special people. 🙂
On the internet and especially if you go to certain blogs and forums, you’ll see a lot of bashing of various types of people, lots of resentment. The internet attracts certain kinds of people. That doesn’t mean this is representative of the majority of Americans.
The majority of Americans are not that focused on race in general, even if they are moreso than the average person from another country.
“And people gets angry when people do it some other way.”
Few people just embrace change, and especially not when others are trying to thrust it upon them.
“People who consider themselves mixed are looked down up on”
Okay… no. That’s not really it.
The thing is, if you’re not American it will be somewhat hard for you to understand and accept why black Americans see race and racial identification the way they do. Because you haven’t gotten to soak in the racial milieu of the U.S., you only know it from outside. And most foreigners are heck of confused about how and why Americans view racial identification the way they do, and why it’s so different from other countries.
They think America should just change its ways — it’s simple! Except it’s not. No other country has the particular racial history, racial baggage, and racial climate that the U.S. does. None. Sure other countries have their own racial issues, but they don’t have ours. We all know ours is quite peculiar.
But I will attempt to explain to you why blacks are not terribly fond of mixed people identifying and going around saying “I’m mixed/I’m not black”
…Since this country was created people of various amounts of African descent have been trying to escape black/African identity. Because black was seen as less than, inferior, something that you didn’t want to be unless you were. People “passed” into white society, claimed every real or imaginary Native American ancestor, claimed their light skin and “good hair” all as a way of saying, “Hey, I’m not [really] black — I’m not unworthy, ugly, inferior.”
This is a deep sentiment in American society that continues today, make no mistake about it. I would make a bold enough statement to say that the majority of black Americans have some sort of shame about blackness, regardless of how they may come across. Mixed persons were (and are) privileged in black society and society as a whole because of their non-black heritage.
So the implication (and often, reality) of a mixed black/white American person always claiming, “I’m not black, I’m mixed” is that they are ashamed of their blackness and proud that at least they can say they’re not “all” black. This may not be true for mixed non-Americans, and it’s not true for all mixed Americans either, but it is true for many. Mixed people are not blind to the advantages they have in society and some have begun to see themselves legitimately as better than blacks, as told to them by society and blacks themselves.
Obviously no one is going to take kindly to someone else saying that who they (both) are is something shameful, bad, and loathsome. Black Americans have (or are trying to have) a sense of pride in their ethnicity despite all the negativity directed towards them. So it’s not surprising that blacks aren’t the biggest fans of mixed people attempting to separate themselves from blackness via the mixed/biracial identity, and do embrace mixed people who don’t make such blatant attempts. It’s not so much about mixed people or mixed identity at all, so much as the implications. However, there are people who do identify as mixed and it’s never problematic because they don’t put themselves on a pedestal because of it. In a way, it’s all in how you go about it.
I wish some of the mixed American people who read the blog would add their input here, because it would be very valuable.
Well..
K, the majority of mixed people who say they are mixed are trying to escape being black got it. I can’t fear mixed people leaving me when I never had them in the first place.
All right things don’t change and can’t change in America and people don’t want to change no matter how much people complain that they want change but really they don’t and are very happy to keep it the way it is so as they can whine. But they like to point to other places and say SEE SEE WE HAVE IT RIGHT!
My favourite is whining African immigrants, first generation or newly arrived. They know the deal in America before moving there but they whine anyway. You are free to go back to your home country if you don’t like it and feel like the majority of the people are evil. I would if I hated whatever adopted country I choice to live in. I’ve moved once and I can do it again.
BTW in Nigeria biracial men play white men in films. How much of a African identity can a mixed American can really have if they ain’t even accepted in Africa as black?
Speaking of African identity, people can talk about that as much as they want but I see very few traits in AA and what’s even more weird African immigrants to America. Oh sure I see them put on a dress once in a while but they given up on their culture.
Few people just embrace change, and especially not when others are trying to thrust it upon them.
Well Americans are famous and well known for trying to force people to do it their way.
Example. Lots of black Americans watches a film about a country. It happen to be about a coloured woman.. The Americans keep calling her a brave black woman in a country were she wouldn’t be a black woman and it would have been made VERY clear to her where her place is and was in society etc etc. But then again the film is not made by that country and things are sewed into fitting Americans view of things so not to offend.
But I’ll refer to all mixed people in America as black whether they consider themselves that or not. As long as Americans put the proper terms on people elsewhere in the world. Yes that includes you ambiguous American persons that travels to West Africa and gets all offended when the people calls you half-caste.
Grace,
“K, the majority of mixed people who say they are mixed are trying to escape being black got it. I can’t fear mixed people leaving me when I never had them in the first place.”
I mean, if you want to purposely misunderstand and exaggerate the point, that’s okay too. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not really going to matter re: changing racial concepts and identifications.
Like I said, if you’re not American, specifically black and American, it will be hard to understand or empathize at all with the situation. You can understand it, if you allow your personal views and experiences not to distort your perspective, but alas.
Anyway, this is getting slightly off-topic so I’ll end the conversation here.
I read your article and what I found missing is what happens to the views/stereotypes held by the family and friends of those who are involved in interracial relationships? I am a white male who has dated and married black women. I have had relationships not get past the dating stage because “My parents would never accept me dating/marrying a white man”. I have also had friends ask me why I only find black women attractive and that I should date white women because the relationships won’t work. However, when I’ve been with strong black women, friends/family members no longer see color but the quality of the relationship and the value and worth she as an individual is bring to my life. I have four bi-racial sons who have changed many individuals perceptions of mixed marriages. They are respectfully of those who respect them and value women not because of being black or being white, but for who they are as individuals. When I am with them in public and with friends and on occasion with new acquaintances (yes some of them have spewd racial slurs without realizing I love black women and have children of black women) but once they have met their mother or my sons, their attitudes change and a discussion is open along with a new perspective of valuing an individual on their own merit and not on skin color. I know I and my lifestyle has changed the views of some if not most of whom I and my beautiful women of color have encounter in this journey of life.
I must admit I find US racial system a bit confusing, not on the intellectual level, but because it often goes against my culture’s ideas about race. (The other day, my mother commented something along the lines of: “Mariah Carey sings like a black woman” (whatever “singing like a black woman” might mean), and I went: “Well, she is black”. My mother couldn’t believe it. She was virtually confused, the way she could have been confused if I said Angela Merkel was black. We’ve spent a lot of time talking about it so I didn’t get to ask what she meant by “singing like a black woman”).
Anyway, the point is, I am unable to see race the way Americans do (this is usually about Hispanic people), but it’s interesting to note these differences because race is defined in different ways across the globe. I have nothing against Americans defining the race the way they do (it’s logical, concerning their historical circumstances and all), and I’d sure wouldn’t want to force an “universal” idea about race on them, or the way race should be.
The only issue I have here is when Americans start forcing their ideas of race on other cultures, without realizing these cultures might be different than them in this department. And there isn’t one “right” or universal way to look at this issue.
Mark Vowell,
I’m not sure if I understand your post. Are you saying you have prejudiced cousins who suddenly change their opinion when they meet your black partners? I’m not sure this is how it goes. Plus, the “strong black women” and “my beautiful women of color” stuff kind of make me cringe, but maybe it’s just me.
I get what you are saying Alee. People don’t like mixed people because they are trying to escape being black. I really do. But I’m get iffy about this.
The only issue I have here is when Americans start forcing their ideas of race on other cultures, without realizing these cultures might be different than them in this department.
As Mira said.
Everyone are expected to get on the American train but if people do it differently they get their panties in a bunch.
@Grace Why do you think Robin thicke is a loser? just curious, I don’t find him attractive myself but I don’t get what exactly makes him a loser. On topic: interesting conversation guys 🙂
sorry, ladies is more accurate part for the most.
1. Hes a cheat
2. Hes a pandering baffoon doing anything to please his black male identifying wife and black buddies.
@Grace I never heard anything about him cheating, and why should he not please is wife and friends?
Hey jennifer, you might want to take the Robin Thicke, Paula Patton discussion to the Clouds, just so this discussion doesn’t get too off-topic.
—
Mark,
“I read your article and what I found missing is what happens to the views/stereotypes held by the family and friends of those who are involved in interracial relationships?”
How could I integrate that into this piece? The article is specifically about the rise in interracial marriage as indicated by that stats in the Pew Report. Even though interracial marriage is a secondary topic, the general topic is not what I talked about in the article.
Also, like Mira, that “strong black women” and “women of color” stuff sort of makes me cringe; it always does when I see white men use that sort of language. It’s seems like overkill and like you’re focused too much on their race and what it is thought to mean. You can state that you love a black woman without adding all the extra stuff.
@Mira, I’ll answer your comment in the Clouds.
“@Andrea, I guess because I thought Kat doesn’t live in America (and isn’t American?), I didn’t read the statements in that context.”
~ Alee
This is why I believe she is American….
“I get it that many black women who date inter racially in the U.S are attacked to the extent that maybe your paranoid reaction is a kind of instinctive self protection, but trust, I wasn’t attacking your dating choices as an individual.”
~Kat
In my experience, only certain African American women and gay BM men use the highlighted phraseology. Though I have noticed it’s gaining popularity with non-Black women. For this reason, along with the rest of her New World-centric remarks, I have no doubt that Kat is indeed a Black American woman. Most non-American BW would have written: but, trust me, I was not attacking your dating choices as an individual. Or simply “but I wasn’t attacking your dating choices as an individual.”
“I would make a bold enough statement to say that the majority of black Americans have some sort of shame about blackness, regardless of how they may come across. Mixed persons were (and are) privileged in black society and society as a whole because of their non-black heritage.”
~Alee
I am African American and I do NOT agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure you have come across some Black people in America who fit this description, but certainly not the majority. Like most intelligent, hard working African Americans, I have encountered an absurd amount of animosity and contempt. ALL of it from other African Americans. A perfect example of this: When I was in college, I was reading a book (don’t remember the title) on a city bus and an older BW I’d never seen before said to me, “So, you’re trying to be smarter than the rest of us, huh?” despite the tone of her voice, I thought she had to be joking, until I recognized the look on her face: anger and resentment. This is one of the milder incidents of another AA being rude and irrational because I wasn’t doing something “ABC approved” — reading a book with no pictures! Lol.
I have no idea why there are so many AA who are like this, but I do not believe they are the majority, nor that they are ashamed. The people who act shocked and even horrified that I, a fairly young and unmarried woman, does not have a single solitary child, are also the people who consider ABC behavior the only acceptable way to be “Black” in America.
It’s not about shame, in my opinion. These are the people who would never question the “loyalties” of a Black person who was a high school drop out, drug addict, with multiple baby mamas / daddies, who can’t speak standard American English, but always question those who make something of their lives. I believe that the people who hold these “You have to be the lowest of the low to be Black” views have extraordinarily low self-esteem, but that’s not the same as shame. If they felt shame, they would stop celebrating ignorance and excusing criminally degenerate behavior, while disdaining knowledge and self-respect. If anything, too many African Americans are absolutely shame-less, and proud of it! BUT they are not the majority, just more vocal.
As for mixed people being privileged in the USA, that belief has kept the whole colorism thing going strong since the days of slavery, when, I am certain, that was true. After all, most normal Human beings prefer their own children to someone else’s. All those “historically Black” colleges in the South were built by White men to give their “mixed” children an opportunity that only their all White half siblings were usually afforded.
Experience tells me that, unless we’re talking about a relative, racist non-Blacks could care less how “mixed” someone who’s not “one of them” is. American Blacks believe it’s true, because all of us have witnessed other AAs giving lighter AAs better treatment and opportunities, at one time or another. But those silly color-struck AAs do not, cannot, represent White Americans nor other non-Blacks (racist or otherwise).
“the “strong black women” and “my beautiful women of color” stuff kind of make me cringe, but maybe it’s just me.”
~Mira
Nope. It’s not just you.
Andrea,
“In my experience, only certain African American women and gay BM men use the highlighted phraseology.”
Lol…
I just don’t think Kat is American or black. I thought she was white and English. Unless my online ethnic radar is completely off this time.
Anyway, I guess until Kat explains, we’ll never know. So moving right along…
“I am African American and I do NOT agree with this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure you have come across some Black people in America who fit this description, but certainly not the majority.”
I don’t expect any black American people to agree with this; I don’t expect blacks to agree with anything non-positive about blacks (at least in words). But that doesn’t change my views. I stick by it being the majority, i.e. maybe 65-70 percent.
And I’m not talking only or even mainly about the ABCs. I don’t mingle much with the AB crowd. I’m talking about middle-class and higher, educated, respected individuals. The Ivy grads, professors, lawyers, physicians. You have to look for it a bit, because it’s not so obvious as “Oh, girl you got that good hair” stuff you’ll hear from ABCs (although things like that have been said by plenty of the above groups, within my earshot). But it wafts from their words, glances, and actions, and if your nose is keen, you can smell it. Income and education doesn’t change ingrained and pervasive mentalities and it doesn’t shield from the effects of a racist society.
A lot of these people aren’t so much a fan of whiteness or non-blackness as they are of what I term, “black light”. That means they believe black is okay, and can sometimes be wonderful and great, but black mixed with something else is usually wonderful and great. (They rationalize this thinking to themselves by saying the black part is what makes it great.) Some think black is good as anything else, but if you could change this, this, or that, it would be even better. You can call this shame, low self-esteem, or self-hate; that’s just semantics.
“those silly color-struck AAs do not, cannot, represent White Americans nor other non-Blacks (racist or otherwise).”
It’s not only black Americans who privilege mixed people. White Americans and other ethnicities also tend to give the tip to mixed blacks over “regular” black Americans.
Mixed blacks are more prominent in mainstream/non-black media, but why? It’s not like that just happened; a good chunk of the ~1 percent of “black” people with a non-black parent just ended up in TV, movies, music, and modeling? Uh, no. And it wasn’t black people who put them there either.
@Alee
The only Black person I know who uses the term “good hair” is my mom, who is 50% Navajo on her dad’s side and mixed some more on her mom’s. And even though I have corrected her for saying it to me many times growing up and even as an adult, I do not believe that when she says it, she is feeling shame about her Blackness. She has always identified herself as “Black”. It would be easy for my mother to simply say she was Navajo, because people don’t identify her, based on her looks, as Black anyways. She proudly informs them that she is.
“Mixed blacks are more prominent in mainstream/non-black media, but why? It’s not like that just happened; a good chunk of the ~1 percent of “black” people with a non-black parent just ended up in TV, movies, music, and modeling? Uh, no. And it wasn’t black people who put them there either.”
~Alee
Well, if you’re going to go by Hollywood / the media, then yes, one could definitely draw that conclusion. But how many people do you know who feel Hollywood represents them values wise or otherwise? I don’t feel represented by Hollywood at all; I’m extremely old-fashioned, in many ways. But I also know many non-Blacks who feel Hollywood is off the rails values and practicality wise.
Also, most non-Blacks are very well aware of colorism in the “Black community”, and if you’re marketing a movie to such a market, it makes sense to give them what you believe they want. And they’re probably right. I have met Black folks (men and women) who said stupid things like, “[a Black actress] is pretty for a dark skinned girl.”
But this is just my humble opinion.
Andrea,
I guess in my perspective you’re trying to put this all on (some) blacks. I don’t think blacks are blameless by far, but I hardly think non-black people are learning from or trying to cater to blacks by favoring mixed people. Hollywood is just one example because it’s something everyone can see with their own eyes, but I could give you plenty of real life examples of regular people who also show the same bias.
But yeah, this is getting off-topic. This topic has strayed many times…
@Alee
I do not blame racism itself on any Blacks, colorism yes — because it’s something that we (as a group) have chosen to do to each other. Two famous real life examples: Yung Burg and Usher’s fans (against his wife). But everyone has a right to their own opinion. And people’s opinions vary depending on their life experiences and where they live. But it’s your blog….
Sorry for going off topic, I’ll say no more.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your heritage and rooting for your own. Diversity isn’t having a bunch of bi-racials with no allegiance to their ancestors and people. No one calls the jews and arabs racist, but they rarely marry outside their race. Blacks and hispanics have no racial pride, that’s why they’re so quick to marry out of their race. It’s sad in my opinion. It’s self-hatred.
“Diversity isn’t having a bunch of bi-racials with no allegiance to their ancestors and people. No one calls the Jews and Arabs racist, but they rarely marry outside their race.”
~Noel
WOW! You really do feel threatened by those “bi-racials”, don’t you. So, people like my mother and my father’s father should never have existed. Right? It’s interesting that you bring up Jews and Arabs, as I have family members who are married to some of both. I guess they must be the “self-hating” Jews and Arabs. LOL.
What I find most interesting about most of the Black people who spout this garbage, is that they are among the most color-struck. And those of us who have the skin tone that they love so much, would not exist were it not for people who didn’t share the same ethnicity (not race, because Humanity only has the one) getting together and having children.
Then you have the other side of the coin: Black people who hate light-skinned “Black” people and see them as a threat. This tends to be a uniquely American problem. Dark skinned AA who feel this way, will treat light-skinned AA like crap, then wonder why those same people aren’t interested in identifying as “Black” — even though they (or someone like them) have told the “bi-racials” that they aren’t “Black enough” and aren’t one of them. But when consensus time rolls around, all of a sudden, they are seen as “brothas and sistas”. LOL.
“Blacks and Hispanics have no racial pride, that’s why they’re so quick to marry out of their race. It’s sad in my opinion. It’s self-hatred.”
~Noel
I can’t speak for Hispanics, because I am not one, but I can speak for myself as a AA woman of mixed ethnicity, who was raised to identify as “Black”. When I married my husband on Saturday, June 16th, it was not because he was White and I hate myself (a concept I find laughable). It was because I love him very much and cannot imagine my life without him in it. Sorry, if my happiness offends insecure bigots who want to believe that I’m trying to “breed out my genes” (yes, I’ve heard that non-sense from many a racist fool and not all of them Black either).
Frankly, I think it’s sad that AA’s on the whole have no connection to a culture other than skin tone, and fail to recognize the inherent weakness of trying to create a culture based on skin tone. Culture is composed of shared values, beliefs, and traditions, not skin tone. This is something that can be remedied within the group, but experience tells me that most AA’s would rather bitch about other AA’s marrying/dating non-Blacks than create a healthy, viable culture to raise their children in.
Frankly, I think people who get upset over other people’s relationships are either lonely, bigoted or both. Everybody else has their own life and just don’t have the time/energy to care.
I see your post as a good sign, whether you are a Black American or a White European. When anything changes for the better, those who want to maintain their current status get pissed off. So, *holds up a champagne glass* here’s to pissing off those who want to maintain the status quo. Good to know we’re succeeding. Cheers!
There are so many (white) Jewish people who intermarry. Just so many. It’s definitely more than blacks, that I know.
@Alee
That has been my experience as well.
I have dated three Jewish men, and all three preferred dating non-Jewsih women. Two ONLY dated Black women. BUT they wanted to raise their children to be Jews. In other words (for the hard of understanding, like Noel), they had a personal preference/physical attraction for AA women, but still wanted a family that would be part of the Jewish culture and religion. They did not feel that they had to choose a Jewish woman to have that. And one of the aforementioned men married a BW a few years back. They have a son who is being raised in the Jewish faith and traditions. The child being ½ AA does not prevent that. And I believe the wife has become Jewish as well.