Article Response: Why the Man Has to Chase

man-chasing-womanA couple of years ago at the Insanity Report, a social commentary blog, founder Kriss created a response article, “Why Does a Man Have to Chase a Woman?” in reaction to an article advising women to never chase men. I’ve only recently come across the post, and thought that it would be helpful to have an answer to his question — why women want men to chase them, and why women should not chase men. From a non-traditional point of view.

Kriss’ stance,

While I still believe there are certain things men are suppose to do, when it comes to approaching someone you might be interested in, I don’t think that is gender specific.  Why should it be?  You have an interest, express it.  That’s not desperate, it’s natural.

Yet there are some women who believe this.  They believe men are supposed to “chase” after the women they want.  I have to be honest, if you’re one of those women who believe that and you are finding it hard to meet a good man, this strategy could be the problem.  I think my biggest problem with this is that it’s so counter intuitive.  So you are interested in the guy but you can’t approach him first or call him first because then he’ll know you are interested in him?  Wow…that makes no sense.

Kriss’ opinion makes sense logically, and from a man’s perspective. Why wouldn’t you show your interest in someone who you’re interested in romantically? Wouldn’t keeping your interest under wraps prevent you from getting exactly what you’re seeking? Well, yes and no. Showing some initial interest would in most cases help, but any more after that is probably not so helpful.

One thing that Kriss did not make clear in his article is the difference between approaching a guy and chasing him. Approaching a man is one thing, while chasing him is something else entirely. The former may speed you along your route to getting the guy you seek, while the latter will not. In fact, in my experience, and that of many other women, chasing a guy will usually cause you to lose any chance you might have had with him.

Why Women Want Men to Chase Them

Some women’s desire to have men chase them comes from a belief that men should chase, period. They think that men are the hunters, and it is not the place of women to pursue men. This is the traditional mindset about courting and dating.

However, there are women who don’t think men should be the only ones who are active in the dating process. They figure that, in nearly every other area in life, women are encouraged to go after what they want, so why should dating be any different? Women are not passive creatures to be acted upon, waiting for a man to “choose” them. Related to that, taking an active role in dating ensures that you have a say in who you’re dating, i.e. you’re not merely stuck with men who approach you.

Yet many of these women still don’t make a habit of showing more than an initial interest in guys they like. Why? Because they’ve found it simply doesn’t work — they are rarely able to capture the hearts of the men they desire. The guy is just not keen on dating her, even if the woman has everything going for her. In other words, the reason women don’t chase men is because men don’t want to be chased, despite their claims to the contrary. So women would rather the man chase them; at least in this situation they can be sure the man is interested.

What Happens When Women Chase Men

man-with-flowerFrom their own claims, most times when a woman pursues a guy, her efforts fall flat. The more she chases, the faster the guy runs in the opposite direction. Calling a guy or otherwise initiating contact, arranging plans, complimenting him or sending him gifts is possibly one of the best ways to not get the guy.

This phenomenon is due to a number of factors, but a major reason is that men wonder why a woman would ever pursue a man. What is wrong with her that she isn’t the one being pursued by a man? She must have something wrong with her; her personality, her looks, or her sanity must not be in order for her to be desperate enough to chase a guy. Does she go after every man this way? Why is she so needful of the companionship of a man?

Another major cause is that the woman pursuing makes things much too easy for the guy. She does all the heavy-duty work — he only needs to sit back for the ride. This in most cases causes the guy to value the woman and any possible relationship with her less than he would if he were the one making the effort. He didn’t work for her, and she is the one that really wants him.

Even if a man does decide to begin a relationship with a woman who pursued him (Yes, this happens in a few cases of reciprocal interest or sheer woe-by-flattery), he brings this nonchalant attitude to a relationship. He may even begin to care so little that he no longer values the woman at all, and  treats her accordingly.

The men for who the above does not apply — men who genuinely would appreciate a woman pursuing them, and would appreciate the woman in the long-run– are a rare breed, indeed.

Why the Man Has to Chase

So, the reason men chase women and should chase women in dating and relationships is actually quite simple — it doesn’t work the other way around. Men don’t want to be chased by women, and women don’t want to chase them for this reason.

What is your stance – should men ever be chased? Why or why not?

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104 thoughts on “Article Response: Why the Man Has to Chase

  1. Well you pretty much said in this article all the reasons why you should never chase a man. I dont think most women ever intend on chasing a man but sometimes wind up in that position if she’s really interested in a guy and he’s taking his time. I think its fine to approach a man initially (not ask him out just strike up a conversation) but after that its best to pull back a little bit and see what he’s going to do.

    Most men naturally start devaluing a woman that he doesnt have to put any effort into getting. Unfortunately in my experiences it does take a bit of game playing in the beginning because I know for me there were times I knew I really liked the guy and would like nothing more than be all over him all the time but had to fight it and not answer every call or send every text back asap etc because the times where Ive done that, the guy lost interest fast.

    The only time ive ever seen that work where the woman chases the guy is when the guy is abnormally shy and timid so he settles with the first woman that does all the work for him.

  2. I’m at work so I can’t burst into tears, but this is the very reason I need to put all thoughts of dating out of my mind …

  3. I think the main problem is that men believe a woman has to be either very, very desperate or very very into him to do this. Either way, it’s not the best situation for starting a relationship. On the other hand, when a man does this, a woman doesn’t think he’s desperate (unless his approach screams it), and it’s generally understood that just because a guy approached you doesn’t mean he’s crazy, madly in love with you or that he’s crazily desperate. Sure, it can flatter your ego – hey, a guy liked you and approached you, but that’s basically it.

    I know rejections hurt guys a lot, but I do think women who approach are seen as investing more of their character and value. Even if you approached a girl you can have most of your self-esteem untouched – you approached simply because you saw a pretty girl (or you were bored, or she looked “easy”). A woman doesn’t have that excuse (hey, I was bored and that guy over there looked cute, so I figured, why not?) No. She is seen as either too desperate and damaged in some way, or so crazy about the guy she would do anything for him.

    These differences come from the double standards and different expectations for men and women. When people start understanding that a woman approaching is doing this for the same reasons as a guy, then it will be another story.

    I really don’t think it’s a matter of who’s chasing. It’s more a matter of what you’re perceived to be doing. A guy approaching a girl = a regular guy wants to meet this girl and take from there. A girl approaching a guy = a crazy and/or ugly woman is so desperate she has no self esteem left so she will do this, OR she is so crazy about this guy, and would do anything, anything just to be with him.

    I do think it’s all down to it. Then again, I never enjoyed the chase so I don’t see the appeal and I don’t know if there are some other things that come into play.

    That being said, women approach men all the time; they just do it in a different way. Most women don’t sit in a corner, praying that a guy who approaches will be someone she at least moderately likes. Most women do approach men they find attractive. The only difference is in the socially acceptable way to do it. You can go to him and start an unrelated, friendly conversation. Or you can isolate yourself from your group and stand near him, making sure he notice you. Or something. If he doesn’t approach, fine – you didn’t lose your self esteem. You were just standing there. If a conversation doesn’t move from the starting point, you don’t lose your self esteem- you were just chatting with a guy, that doesn’t mean you were interested. Etc.

    Poor guys have a very difficult task here to determine these subtle signs. When does a chat mean “I’m making myself available so you can approach me”, and when does a chat mean “I’m so bored and I’m chatting with you because I have nothing better to do but I’m not interested”? To be honest, I have no idea.

    Actually, this “I am keeping my self esteem” approach is very common with guys here. While some whistle at you and approach you buy asking for a phone number, others simply start a conversation. If it turns out a girl isn’t interested, no big deal – a guy never said he was there to pick her up. So he can keep his self esteem and not face open rejection. This is a preferred way of approaching for many women I know. It also gives better results. Cold approach and PUA techniques don’t seem to work at all, except on women who enjoy to be approached by as many men as possible during one night.

  4. I’m a guy, and I don’t really agree with this, exactly. The main thing I want to say is that “chasing” doesn’t work very well, PERIOD, whatever your gender is.

    If a guy shows interest, and the woman doesn’t reciprocate, then putting in extra effort often won’t work. There are exceptions, of course. There are those stories you’ll hear old people tell, where the woman didn’t like the man much, but he “wore her down” until she gave him a chance. These are very romantic and all, but they are not the norm. Nine times out of ten, if the man shows interest, and doesn’t get it back, he’s gone; most guys’ egos just can’t take the beating.

    And even if the guy is willing to keep getting rejected, the odds of “wearing her down” are really poor. If a woman likes you, she likes you. If not, well, it’s going to be difficult to change her mind. I’m thinking most lengthy pursuits are liable to end in irritation or a restraining order than a happy ending.

    Basically what I’m saying is that I don’t entirely buy the argument when women say they put a guy off by chasing him. I suspect that, all too often, the guy was already put off, and her efforts to continue the relationship simply didn’t work. This is especially likely because we guys frequently don’t like conflict with women or witnessing women’s hurt feelings, and thus often hide our lack of attraction if we’re not feeling the attraction. So that is apt to leave a lot of women feeling blindsided or confused if things end with no explanation or resolution.

  5. The point about guys not valuing women unless they’ve put in enough effort…. hmmm. I actually find this argument a little insulting, on some level.

    Basically, it makes men sound like simpletons at a carnival, who value a prize mainly by what it takes to get the prize, rather than the actual value of the prize. If a guy spends $10 winning a 50 cent prize, most people would call him a rube. That’s kind of how this description of the male character comes off to me.

    I believe, or at least hope, that most guys value a woman mainly based on the actual attributes of hers that matter to him. I really don’t think I’m going to chuck out a beautiful, charming, smart, compassionate, wonderful woman, simply because she didn’t make me work hard enough for it. And I don’t think I’m a really rare unicorn, either.

    Really, I think this traditional pattern of behavior, of making sure the men do all the courting, is based mainly off of one thing: men and women have different levels of interest in casual sex. I don’t know whether this difference is due more to nature or nurture. But men definitely have a higher interest in casual sex, and therefore some men, at some times, will lie about their intentions to get a woman into bed.

    I think drawing out courtship and making men put in effort has never been about its effect on the “good” suitor (the ones who want more than to bone the woman’s brains out). There really is a minimal effect on him, one way or the other (although he may have been trained by custom to expect this rigamarole and be confused if it’s not enforced; that’s called sexism). But there is an effect on the “bad” suitor — if he only wants the booty, he won’t have the patience to put in time and effort, and he’ll buzz off.

    I think all this emphasis on not chasing a man boils down to whether a woman wants to throw up a “player filter” to avoid the hurt feelings associated with jerky guys who hit it and quit it, subsequent to having made their phoney professions of undying, forever love.

  6. Jess,

    “I dont think most women ever intend on chasing a man but sometimes wind up in that position if she’s really interested in a guy and he’s taking his time.”

    Yes, that does happen. Especially with the more shy and/or laid-back guys. Unfortunately some of these guys still more or less fit under this post and still can be bothered by women chasing them.

    “I think its fine to approach a man initially (not ask him out just strike up a conversation) but after that its best to pull back a little bit and see what he’s going to do.”

    I agree with that, and that’s the only way I advocate.

    “The only time ive ever seen that work where the woman chases the guy is when the guy is abnormally shy and timid so he settles with the first woman that does all the work for him.”

    True, but who wants a guy whose only with them because he’s incapable of putting himself forward enough to get women he wants? Also, some of these guys flat-out leave the first woman when a woman they “really” like comes along.



    Sherry,

    It’s not that bad… you’ll find love, I know you will. You can still approach guys, just that chasing is not the way to go. I’m telling women this because I know, from experience, it does not help. Never has, and probably never will.

    Often times, if you’re a more headstrong woman you won’t even notice that what you’re doing is “chasing”, but initiating contact and generally being the organizer in dating will ultimately kill your chances.

  7. Mira,

    “I know rejections hurt guys a lot, but I do think women who approach are seen as investing more of their character and value.”

    Yes, and in a way they are are investing more because they are bucking convention and societal expectations (whether they realize it or not).

    “When people start understanding that a woman approaching is doing this for the same reasons as a guy, then it will be another story.”

    Yes.

    “That being said, women approach men all the time; they just do it in a different way.”

    Lol, most women’s “approaches” are not actually approaches, but hints for the man to approach her.

    I find it hilarious because the vast majority of guys don’t understand these “approaches” at all and some of them kick themselves when they later find out a certain woman was interested in them but lost hope because they didn’t seem interested in her.

    Jess says:

    “Very true Mira. Sexism is at the root of why a woman doing the chasing doesnt work.”

    Mira says:

    “I do think that’s the reason and not some “natural way of doing it” crap.”

    Yes, of course. Maybe I should have made that clearer in the post… traditional gender roles are why men are put off by a woman chasing them. Not anything inherent in maleness or courtship.

    Some gender roles are so steeped in our culture that we don’t even notice them and thus they will remain there. While we’ve gotten rid of many sexist ideas about gender, this one holds steadfast.

  8. Hi smartacus,

    I’ll break this response in two:

    Part 1

    “I’m a guy, and I don’t really agree with this, exactly. The main thing I want to say is that “chasing” doesn’t work very well, PERIOD, whatever your gender is.’

    Well, let’s just define chasing, as it is being used here:

    *Being the first one to call/text/or otherwise initiate contact, on the majority of occasions
    *Setting up dates
    *Habitually complimenting
    *Sending gifts
    *Asking the other where they see things going, how they feel about you, etc

    So “chasing” as meant here is not a watered down version of stalking, as some people think of it, but just showing a great deal of interest in a person. I will agree that chasing as in the sense of “wearing the other down” does not generally work.

    “Basically what I’m saying is that I don’t entirely buy the argument when women say they put a guy off by chasing him. I suspect that, all too often, the guy was already put off, and her efforts to continue the relationship simply didn’t work.”

    I’d disagree with that. Imagine…

    A woman walks up to a man and strikes up conversation. The man has never seen the woman before that day and doesn’t know much about her. He finds her interesting and cute, and would like to get to know her better. So they exchange contact info.

    The girl calls him that night to ask him if he would like to hang out in a couple of days. He says sure, and they do. A few days later she calls “just to chat” and asks him very personal questions. The guy is weirded out by these questions, but says nothing.

    The woman calls every day afterward, just to “see how he’s doing”. A couple days pass and the woman then asks the guy if he wants to go to a game with her, since she has an extra ticket. They go, and after the game she surprises him with a small gift, as a way to express her “appreciation” for their friendship/relationship and says she hopes it can continue to grow.

    At this point the guy is feeling very pressured and decides that he doesn’t want to really “do this” with the woman. He finds a way to ending their budding relationship.

    In this situation, the guy was initially interested in getting to know the woman. He was not put off by her appearance or anything about her personality, that he could discern on meeting her. What ultimately put him off was her pursuing him/her keen interest in developing a relationship with him.

    This scenario is quite common, although the details will be slightly different in each case.

  9. Part 2

    “The point about guys not valuing women unless they’ve put in enough effort…. hmmm. I actually find this argument a little insulting, on some level.”

    Well, this doesn’t only apply to men. Women are this way as well: it’s a people thing. People generally value things less if it is too easy to gain, too easy to have, and too easy to keep.

    No one wants to admit it, because they like to think of themselves as “good”, “evolved” persons and because most people don’t really reflect on their actions and thought processes. But the truth is most people certainly would not much value, or at the very least would take for granted, someone who is available to them 24/7 and does everything for them. And will value someone/something that requires effort and time on their part. The latter is not conventional wisdom for no reason.

    No amount of wishful thinking will change this, and experience will teach you this is true, whether you’d like to think it is or not — I’d certainly like to think it not true, but alas.

    “I believe, or at least hope, that most guys value a woman mainly based on the actual attributes of hers that matter to him. I really don’t think I’m going to chuck out a beautiful, charming, smart, compassionate, wonderful woman, simply because she didn’t make me work hard enough for it. “

    You know, the idealist in me wants to believe that. I do. But the reality is that there are many beautiful, charming, smart, etc women in the world, and there is simply no reason for a guy to value a woman for those reasons, and many don’t. Plenty of women who fit these criteria are taken for granted every day.

    Not to mention the most important part — people rarely realize how wonderful a person is while they are around and it becomes infinitely easier to not realize how wonderful a person is if they basically act like they couldn’t live without you.

    “I think all this emphasis on not chasing a man boils down to whether a woman wants to throw up a “player filter” to avoid the hurt feelings associated with jerky guys who hit it and quit it”

    Well, before even that (wayyy before that), it’s about not wanting to scare men off by chasing them and ensuring that they are actually interested (as shown by their pursuing).

  10. See, but that scenario you described is actually a little bit stalkery feeling to me. If I was the guy I would be put off as well.

    But If the woman in question had just called me one time to chat, and then asked me out to the ballgame, then assuming I liked her, I’d think that was fine.

    The issue with the scenario you described isn’t that the woman is making an effort. It’s that she’s coming on too strong. Calling every night? Presents? That needs to wait until later in the relationship.

    All this would be fine if the guy was coming on equally strong, I guess. I think the important thing is to match the pace of the other person. It’s a give and take. Again, I think this can apply equally to guys. If a guy smothers a woman he’s just met, she’s liable to find him creepy as well.

  11. You said, “You know, the idealist in me wants to believe that. I do. But the reality is that there are many beautiful, charming, smart, etc women in the world, and there is simply no reason for a guy to value a woman for those reasons, and many don’t. Plenty of women who fit these criteria are taken for granted every day.”

    Okay, I agree with you up to a point that we can all come to take people for granted and sometimes need a reminder when we do so. i just don’t see a gender difference in that. A man who lets a woman walk all over him may also find that she does so, even if she’s not a bad person. We’ve all got competing pressures in our lives, and it’s often tempting to treat the people closest to us the worst, ironically, simply because we feel they won’t leave as easily as casual acquaintances will.

    However, I will also say that a lot of the time the reason that a man (or a woman) takes the other party for granted, particularly if they do it to a great degree, is that they ARE a bad person. If you hook up with someone who’s not nice, they’re likely to be less than nice toward you, at some point.

    I guess one thing that bugs me is the sense I get that you’re suggesting that a man generally won’t put any value on a woman unless she “trains him” to. And if she fails to do so right from the get-go, there’s no going back later on to set him straight. This seems like a view of men as universally predatory.

    I don’t see things that way. I think there are men who respect women and ones who don’t. If you end up with a man who doesn’t respect you, you’re not likely to teach him to.

  12. Here’s an interesting point, or my opinion at least. Most of the times, women are the initiators.

    A woman walks into a bar, she scans around for a couple of secs and she knows where she wants to sit and she has made a note of the guy that’s talking to his friend (who”the guy”) is oblivious at that moment, she knows exactly how to get that particular guys attention without doing much…..

    Then the conversation ends, he starts scanning around the room and he notices her and he either goes over to introduce himself or he plays it cool but he is already magically attracted to her(somehow)…this is generalisation though not applicable to all

    My point is that women are intuitive and it’s amazing how mankind doesn’t realise that, there are many unknown factors that happen before you meet someone or start speaking to them…..there are signals/energies etc you name them. ….

    Ultimately my point is that, women are actually more in control than they would like to think. A woman has been granted gifts that a man cannot understand nor comprehend.

    My point is that, I wouldn’t recommend a woman to go after a guy, because there are many reasons you shouldn’t than you should.

    Firstly, unfortunately we still live in a very judgmental and small minded universe and people are scared of open mindedness because it makes them uncomfortable and takes them of their comfort zones and vulnerable, because everyone has to play a role…

    If a woman, is after a guy; he still thinks she is desperate, bossy, after his money or he’ll go after her for financial gain etc…..

    But then again, situations are different, it might work for only Mary but not for Stacy, Thandie, and Jo-Ann…

    But I give mad props to the women who go after guys and still get what they want…..

    Peace and Love

  13. smartacus,

    “See, but that scenario you described is actually a little bit stalkery feeling to me. If I was the guy I would be put off as well.”

    Lol, but men do this all the time. In their own “manly” way; possibly take out the calling often (although some do that as well). But it’s a regular thing for a guy to ask a woman he likes on dates, and attempt to woo her with gifts. However, when a woman does it, it’s stalker-ish… Which is my point exactly. :)

    “Okay, I agree with you up to a point that we can all come to take people for granted and sometimes need a reminder when we do so. i just don’t see a gender difference in that.”

    I do. Not because of any inherent gender differences but because women are taught to value men, and relationships with men, to a much greater extent that men are taught to value relationships with women. And thus it is much easier for a man to take a woman’s interest in him for granted, after all, if he’s a decent guy, he probably won’t have much trouble finding another woman to be interested in him.

    Men don’t really need women to feel validated as men, whereas women do need men to feel validated as women. This is why there are books, shows, services, etc dedicated on teaching women ways to find a partner. Because any woman worth her salt should have no trouble getting and keeping a man. As such a woman will be more grateful when a man takes such a keen interest in her.

    “I guess one thing that bugs me is the sense I get that you’re suggesting that a man generally won’t put any value on a woman unless she “trains him” to…This seems like a view of men as universally predatory.”

    LOL.

    No, men are not universally predatory (some definitely are though…). I don’t see it as training, more like going with the status quo. The status quo says that men should pursue women, not vice versa.

    While I’m usually all for doing your own thing and ignoring the status quo, in thise case, you can not win against it. Because other people are involved, who have no interest in revoking tradition, and in fact probably don’t realize that they are following it in the first place.

    “I don’t see things that way. I think there are men who respect women and ones who don’t. If you end up with a man who doesn’t respect you, you’re not likely to teach him to.”

    It’s not a matter of respecting women or not. Many of these guys are perfectly respectful they’ve just been taught that things should be a certain way and this conditioning is so long-held and strong that it’s now a part of their attitude towards relationships and life.

    Some men this article will not apply to (and you may be one of them, though I wouldn’t bet on it… Lol!), but they are so rare that putting in qualifiers all the time to include them is essentially a waste of space.

  14. Hi Mkhululi,

    “Most of the times, women are the initiators.”

    Only in the most passive sense.

    Putting yourself in the general area of a man you’re interested is not initiating. It is passive, not active; it’s putting yourself in a position to be acted upon, not controlling your situation in any way.

    “women are actually more in control than they would like to think. A woman has been granted gifts that a man cannot understand nor comprehend.”

    That’s just the problem — men don’t get it. Lol.

  15. Here’s what is seen as ok in my culture for a woman to do when she sees a hot guy she likes (at a party, for example):

    - Isolate herself from her group and sit/stand near the guy, trying to look as hot as possible. And/or talking to one friend (who is “uglier” than her), and laughing loudly to capture his attention.

    - Stand next to him in hopes he’ll strike a conversation.

    - Stand next to him, then initiate a neutral conversation, such as asking for a lighter (everybody smokes here) in hopes he’ll continue with the small talk and take it from here (if he does do that, it’s a clear sign he’s interested; guys don’t talk to girls at parties unless they are interested).

    - If you’re with your group when you meet him, start a friendly conversation and focus all of your attention to talking to him and only him. Neutral subjects, so you can always pretend you weren’t trying to pick him up if it doesn’t go well.

    That’s about it. Things that aren’t seen as ok in my culture for a woman to do:

    - Approach a guy and say something like: “Hi, my name is X, what’s yours” (or any other conversation opening that signals you are there because you want to meet him and not because you have a specific reason (like looking for a lighter).

    - Offering a guy your phone number or an email, unless you have a very, very VERY good reason to (in fact, thinking of a suitable pretext to get a guy’s contact number is an art on its own). But you must never, never make it seem like you want the number because you’re interested.

    - Complimenting a guy. Well, you can compliment him on an accomplishment during a conversation (for example, he mentions he plays in a rock band, you are allowed to seem interested and to say it’s a great thing), but you must never compliment him in a way that suggests you find him attractive or that you’re interested in him.

    - Acting overly sexual in front of him. It can go from showing your cleavage to talking about sex. This behavior might bring you guys who use cat call whistles to approach a girl, but it won’t get you a decent guy for anything more than sex (and public humiliation later – guys here are very big on slut shaming and both genders believe a girl who acts like this should be ridiculed and humiliated and ostracized any way possible, because she “deserved it”).

    - Calling him first. UNLESS you have a good reason to (if you two previously agreed that you’ll call him to tell him how much is that memory card in the computer shop your brother works at).

  16. On an unrelated note, many guys don’t even approach a girl who didn’t make the first “move” (= subtle techniques described above). Well, some do, and it does work in some occasions, but it looks like what works the most is for a girl to give a guy a green light and then he initiates further. If you don’t give the green light, many guys would assume you’re not interested, and unless you’re incredibly attractive, many would never approach you.

    This is why knowing how to initiate in a socially acceptable way crucial for a girl. On one hand, you need to do it, and on the other, you need to know how to do it right. Being too open is bad (you’ll be seen as desperate or crazy about the guy), but not doing it at all is bad as well. I don’t know about the American guys, but guys here don’t approach girls who don’t make themselves approachable. (Sure, sometimes they think you are approachable even if you’re not; for example, wearing something provocative is a sign any guy can approach, at least that’s how they think).

    But still, you are expected to do something or else guys won’t approach you. This is why shy girls or socially awkward girls don’t have much luck here, even if they’re pretty. I’ve seen guys ignoring pretty girls on a regular basis, simply because they didn’t know how to initiate the contact in the right way or because they didn’t know how to dress up. Pretty girls, interesting girls. But they just didn’t know how to initiate.

  17. And to continue spamming the thread, I agree with some of smartacus’ points. The situation described wouldn’t work for a guy, either, at least not in my culture. Guys are expected to play hard to get as well. If he calls on a regular basis or gives gifts and too many compliments and initiates everything – that is seen as a bad thing. A girl might appreciate the attention but she wouldn’t want to be with a guy.

    So while it’s acceptable for a guy to approach you and strike a conversation and seems attracted to you and ask you for a phone number (without a pretext), what he does next is… Nothing. He won’t call you straight away, and when he does call, chances are he’ll be all ambiguous. Then he’ll ask you to meet him somewhere, at which point you should say you’re unavailable (because you play hard to get), and he’ll say it’s ok and that you should tell him when it’s ok for you. When you name a date, he will say it’s not ok for him (or he’ll agree but he will call later to cancel). This can go at great lengths: nobody wants to show they are really interested. And when they meet, they will continue with this approach. The guy will play it cool an not enthusiastic at all, or else he’s doomed the same way a girl who cases is doomed.

    The only difference here is that at the beginning, he’s allowed to make his interest known openly and without any harm. Yes, I am asking for a phone number because I’d like to see you again and take it from there; nothing more than that. This is understood from both parties, and the guy didn’t compromise himself with this. While a girl would compromise herself; she can’t make the approach this openly.

    However, what happens after the initiative conversation and the exchange of phone numbers can go either way. A guy that approached can easily become the one who is chased if he plays it cool (which is most guys do – they don’t want to be the ones who invest more). So the only difference is that he is allowed to show interest openly at first, mainly because this interest is seen as normal, and not a desperate and/or “I’m crazy about you” situation. He is also expected to call first, but not straight away, and he shouldn’t be too enthusiastic about the whole thing. He is equally expected to play hard to get (unless it’s about sex), and he will equally suffer the consequences if he shows he’s too interested. (By calling the girl too often or by always initiating stuff).

    In fact, at this point men and women are generally on equal terms: they are allowed the same amount of initiating and interest or else they would be rejected as too clingy. Many girls would leave a guy who who seems to be too into them, and the stuff he needs to do is basically the same as the stuff that would doom a girl too needy. The only gender difference at this point is initiating sex: you can’t do it as openly if you’re a girl (because you’ll be seen as slut), and you need to have sex with a guy at a socially acceptable time (not to soon and not too late in a relationship). But when it comes to the rest of the relationship, guys aren’t allowed to chase any more than the girls are, or else they’re seen as clingy, needy and desperate.

    At least this is how it works in my culture.

  18. Oh, and one more (it’s the last time before somebody else comments, I promise), I also agree that a guy trying to win a girl who isn’t interested doesn’t work. Well, maybe in some cases (everything works in some cases), but not as often as romantic movies and family stories lead us to believe.

    The whole “you need to work hard to get this girls attention; even if she’s clearly not interested, try harder” is a sexist crap if you ask me. It assumes women don’t know what they want and it assumes that if a woman isn’t attracted to you she can easily become attracted later the way you can’t (if a guy isn’t attracted to a girl straight away he’ll probably never will be). I don’t buy this. I know many women (myself included) who are either attracted to someone or they aren’t. No amount of attention would change that.

    The only reason this type of stories sometimes work (and it was more frequent in the past than today) is because women are encouraged to go after a decent man who treats them nicely and who will provide for them, instead of a guy they simply find attractive. This is why many of our grandfathers managed to succeed even when our grandmothers weren’t interested initially.Grandmas went: “who’s this skinny guy with a squeaky voice? No way!”, but after he’s shown his interest once, twice, asked her for this dance or proclaimed his love for them, or sent them flowers or whatever, if he was nice, the grandma would feel wanted and she would start thinking: “hmmm, but he’s so nice, he’s a gentleman, he’s graduating this summer and he’s a very nice guy, so hmmm, maybe he’s not that bad at all”.

    While gender roles are still going strong, and while many women still expect a man to provide, women of today have more freedom of going at places and meeting more potential mates, so they aren’t in a position to choose the first nice guy who approaches. They are also not seen as old maids at 25. Plus, women of today, while still not being taught they are sexually equal to men (in a way they can do the same things as guys can), they are more liberated than the women of the past. They are not afraid to say no, and they are taught that stalking is not romantic. So a guy who initiates over and over and over again and who proclaims his love and writes you poems is not seen as cute: he’s seen as clingy and desperate at best, and annoying stalker at worst.

    Alee,

    But it’s a regular thing for a guy to ask a woman he likes on dates, and attempt to woo her with gifts. However, when a woman does it, it’s stalker-ish… Which is my point exactly. :)

    You see, it’s not like that in my culture. A guy is expected to call first and perhaps to initiate the first date (unless a girl has a pretext). But that’s it. A girl has to call him, too, and to initiate dates, or else he will be seen as clingy and not many guys want to give girls this control. No. She has to initiate stuff, too. As for the gifts, they are usually no-no from either party, unless they are for a special occasion (birthday, Valentine’s day, etc.) Making random gifts if seen as clingy or bad in another way (mainly because people are broke here so doing this is suspicious), unless it’s something really small, like buying her chocolate. But you shouldn’t do this often and you shouldn’t do it if it’s not reciprocated (she should buy you small stuff, too, or else you don’t buy it either). Sending romantic messages and emails is more a girl thing; this is where a girl can do more then a guy before it becomes weird. A girl that sends an e-card is seen as less clingy than a guy who does it, for example, mainly because it’s believed women like cute e-cards anyway, so sending one doesn’t mean she’s crazy about the guy. On the other hand, a guy has to be really in love to do something like that.

    The bottom line is, in my culture a guy who always initiates dates, who gives gifts and compliments often will be seen as needy and desperate soon, and treated accordingly. It’s not something I advocate (I’m clingy and needy, so I’m ok with guys doing it), but women in general hate it. If a guy doesn’t play hard to get a girl won’t respect him, simple as that. People (both genders) here are very big on playing hard to get; for many, it’s the only way to earn someone’s respect. Failing to do so will make you seem clingy regardless of gender.

  19. Mira,

    “The situation described wouldn’t work for a guy, either, at least not in my culture. Guys are expected to play hard to get as well. If he calls on a regular basis or gives gifts and too many compliments and initiates everything – that is seen as a bad thing.”

    I know your culture is different when it comes to dating and relationships. Here men are expected to do everything in dating and relationships. Well, maybe not everything but around 90 percent.

    If a guy rarely called, said nothing when a woman showed up for a date all dressed up, and generally acted nonchalant about being with her, the woman would be wondering if he actually liked her. It is normal that if a guy is interested in you he will call, and he will naturally say things like “You’re so beautiful” when you’re all dolled up (or even when you’re not) and randomly say things like, “You’re so smart/funny/cute,” in conversation.

    Gifts are usually reserved for when the relationship becomes more serious, but if the guy is really interested in a woman, giving a gift is a clear way to show that.

    “He won’t call you straight away, and when he does call, chances are he’ll be all ambiguous. Then he’ll ask you to meet him somewhere, at which point you should say you’re unavailable… When you name a date, he will say it’s not ok for him (or he’ll agree but he will call later to cancel). This can go at great lengths: nobody wants to show they are really interested. And when they meet, they will continue with this approach.”

    Sooo… how do men and women get together? They just eventually become a little easier to get over time, until they finally “give in”? :)

    “In fact, at this point men and women are generally on equal terms: they are allowed the same amount of initiating and interest or else they would be rejected as too clingy.”

    Well, you all may be farther along than we are, in this aspect.

    “A girl that sends an e-card is seen as less clingy than a guy who does it…a guy has to be really in love to do something like that.”

    What the…?

    I get [e]cards all the time, from guys who are just interested all the way up to guys I’ve been in a relationship with for a long time. I guess they’re nice, but I definitely don’t think it means the guy is so in love with me, and I’m sure the men aren’t giving it to signify that either.

  20. People here are very proud; the goal number one is not even to get laid, but not to be ridiculed or to lose your pride. Being crazy about a girl and chasing her around is seen as desperate and will be ridiculed, unless you are only doing it to get sex (in which case it’s acceptable to do anything because you will dump her afterward and ridicule her anyway).

    So, both girls and guys start with mindset- not to be ridiculed and hurt in a relationship. It takes a while (sometimes, a looooooooong while) until they open to each other. A person needs to be tested numerous times before that, and you always want to make that the person is more into you than you are into them.

    At least this is what is seen as a social imperative. In reality, girls and guys all fall in love, hard all the time. There are guys who get so crazy about a girl they forget about all these rules and don’t care about the ridicule they get. I even think girls are those who are more careful (I know many girls and most are very resistant and can play this game very well, probably because women are generally taught to monitor social behavior more carefully). Guys often screw up by calling too much or (gasp! shock!) falling in love with a girl that was supposed to be for sex only. On the other hand, many girls fail here as well, so they get clingy or fall for a guy before they properly tested him, or they have sex too soon in a relationship.

    As usual, the stuff people really do is not the same as what is socially acceptable, but the social protocol dictates that you shouldn’t be too enthusiastic at first, and you sure mustn’t be more into the person than they are into you. This is seen as the most important – to preserve your pride intact, no matter what.

    It is normal that if a guy is interested in you he will call, and he will naturally say things like “You’re so beautiful” when you’re all dolled up (or even when you’re not) and randomly say things like, “You’re so smart/funny/cute,” in conversation.

    Well, casual compliments here and there are ok, as long as you don’t act if you are really into the person, especially at start. It’s ok for a girl to tell a guy he’s smart or funny (and vice versa), but stronger compliments are reserved for later.

    Generally, a guy who gives too many compliments at start is seen as suspicious – it’s usually a good sign he want to take you into bed and nothing more.

    Sooo… how do men and women get together? They just eventually become a little easier to get over time, until they finally “give in”? :)

    No idea. I’ve never played this game, but it can go at great lengths and to last for a long time. I don’t have male friends so I don’t know their side of the story, but I’ve heard girls talking about doing this to their boyfriends of two years. They’d talk about this with great pride: “hey, I’m so in love with him, but there’s no way I’d let him see it, I don’t want him to use me, so I’m always careful; I love him but I’d never compromise my pride”.

    Some girls are bragging about it, as if it’s a great accomplishment, to never let a guy know how much they care about them. Then when they break up they are devastated but they still doll up and go to their favourite club and flirt with other guys so the guy would think they are soooooo over him. Then these girls come home and cry and gather their friends and cry some more (I’ve been the shoulder to cry on for numerous of times). But in public, they’d never show how hurt they are. I don’t know how they do it.

    This sort of behavior is not reserved for romantic relationships. My ex, for example, he’s been friends with this guy since they were kids, and they were sill playing these games. Once they were arguing for 30 minutes whether he should come down from his apartment to pick something from his friend, or the friend should come up to give him. I mean, they literally argued for half an hour (my ex was at the window and the friend was in the yard) because nobody wanted to be the one who goes. And they were BFF and all!!! Imagine how girlfriends and casual friends are treated.

    Well, you all may be farther along than we are, in this aspect.

    Nah, I think it’s because our guys are lazy and their pride is even stronger than their desire for sex. (Speaking of which, I should really sit down and write that Serbian men post).

    Once again, not all guys are like this, and maybe I’m exaggerating, but the important is, this behavior is seen as a social ideal.

    What the…?

    Are you kidding me? E-cards (unless they are overly sexualized) are seen as gay, which is the last thing guys here want to be perceived as. Sharing funny photos and montages is popular, though, but it’s the stuff you do with your friends, too, so it’s not seen as a sign of being crazy in love with a person.

  21. @Mira, you’ve raised a lot of interesting points.
    I also never got the game playing part. I mean if you like someone….you should have a right to let them know but the BIG problem everyone is scared of is REJECTION(humiliation, being scorned and yourself esteem being tampered with…. )

    Now that we think things will get better in the 21 Century(because we have learnt from our parents and the past and more educated and more aware) but now the game has changed.

    I’ve been rejected far too long, and my life will never be the same. You tend to be more careful of putting yourself out there and rather die in silence….

    I mean I’m at the stage in my life where I’ve slightly turned my feelings off and if I like a guy I don’t show it and if he doesn’t show interest then I talk myself out of like him, I’ve got a degree in getting over someone, it’s like a switch that I can turn off after couple of days but this scares me because it’s making it tougher for me to really fall in love with someone because all the guys who rejected me….each left with a part of me or a part of my romantic nature…

    I don’t make an effort anymore, If I like a guy I befriend him until I get over him and funny enough, when I’m over him, that’s when he starts getting attracted to me

    There’s never a right time with me and love and the guys I meet…..

    Ultimately, the chasing for me has never worked and I had to pick out all the pieces of what’s left of myself esteem and my pride and realised that when the time is right it will happen naturally…..I just need to be submissive and patient with men

    And when the time is right, you won’t have to forcify(or force) things and pretend and play games it will happen naturally….

  22. What is wrong with her that she isn’t the one being pursued by a man? She must have something wrong with her; her personality, her looks, or her sanity must not be in order for her to be desperate enough to chase a guy. Does she go after every man this way? Why is she so needful of the companionship of a man?

    This to me sounds like projecting your own preconceptions of what a man thinks into your own personal hypothetical “dude”. Most guys *would* wonder why they’re being chased, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll think negatively of her for it — in fact, ask most guys and they’ll tell you they LIKE being chased. People in general like being sought after by members of the sex they find attractive.

    Another major cause is that the woman pursuing makes things much too easy for the guy. She does all the heavy-duty work — he only needs to sit back for the ride. This in most cases causes the guy to value the woman and any possible relationship with her less than he would if he were the one making the effort. He didn’t work for her, and she is the one that really wants him.

    I’m sorry, but if making things easy for the guy causes him to devalue the girl, then why isn’t the opposite true for men making things easy for women? Alternatively, does this mean that women who makes things as difficult as possible for the guy will find themselves in a happy, healthy relationship? Why are you assuming that men base their value of women they desire on the amount of chasing required to catch her? Are we cavemen looking for a princess to steal? I find this opinion a little unfounded considering it seems that you’re assuming this based on a stereotype of insecure girls chasing cruel men where your hypothetical situation would actually make sense.

    More to the point, it’s kind of misandric to assume that most men are going to value someone based on the cheap standard of ease versus difficulty. Does this cause men to hold incredible respect for girls who are completely closed-off? No, it doesn’t, because such girls are typically socially outcast for their inability to form meaningful relationships. (Assuming we’re talking about heteronormative relations.)

    Even if a man does decide to begin a relationship with a woman who pursued him … he brings this nonchalant attitude to a relationship. He may even begin to care so little that he no longer values the woman at all, and treats her accordingly.

    What nonchalant attitude? What specifically is nonchalant about starting a relationship with another person? Typically, such men who no longer care about the women they’re in a relationship with were never actually in a relationship to begin with. To assume otherwise seems to indicate that the person believes men to be inherently sociopathic =/

    The men for who the above does not apply — men who genuinely would appreciate a woman pursuing them, and would appreciate the woman in the long-run– are a rare breed, indeed.

    I disagree. Most men like being pursued, chased, admired, sought after. All people enjoy that kind of flattery. I think you’re code-switching — assuming men saying they don’t enjoy being nagged, stalked, bugged, and facing unwanted advances from people they’re not attracted to are saying they don’t like being chased. But in reality, men enjoy the flattery, just like everyone does, and often enough the thought that a person is attracted to YOU is enough to raise your interest. See, stalking is not chasing, and vice versa, and women know that fact intimately from personal experience I imagine.

    So in response to your conclusion, Men don’t want to be chased by women, and women don’t want to chase them for this reason.

    I have to say, you may be right if we’re talking stereotypes — but as we know stereotypes aren’t very accurate to reality.

    Honestly this entire post is a little disappointing =/

    You seem to be basing your opinion of what men what, think and feel on the worst case scenario and lowest common denominator. Even if you’re speaking from personal experience you’re still showing a somewhat insulting generalization of men (and women, to some extent) because you’re portraying men as shallow, simplistic, callous, etc.

    Now, I’m sure that wasn’t your intent! But you have to admit, it is a little strange that you state upfront, . Calling a guy or otherwise initiating contact, arranging plans, complimenting him or sending him gifts is possibly one of the best ways to not get the guy.

    Sorry, but in real-life relationships, a woman who doesn’t call, initiate contact, arrange plans, compliment, or send gifts is a person who is likely to be lonely for a VERY long time. Why? Because her behavior shows her to be a selfish, flaky, boring, and — especially if she expects all the above-mentioned behaviors out of men, but not herself like you stated — straight-up misandric.

    Who would want to date a person like that? Not me, that’s for sure. And that’s why me, and most guys, just don’t.

  23. I agree it comes naturally with the right person, but both you and him need to be open and not playing the game.

    I’ve been rejected many times and hurt in a relationship even more, but I can’t play the game at all. So when I was hurt and unable to trust men I simply distanced from dating altogether. I couldn’t be in a relationship without falling in love or without showing the guy I love him. I mean, there’s no point for me to be in a relationship under these circumstances. So I just didn’t date at all.

  24. Zek,

    ‘This to me sounds like projecting your own preconceptions of what a man thinks into your own personal hypothetical “dude”.’

    No… It’s based on men I’ve known and studied, platonically, romantically, and casually.

    “In fact, ask most guys and they’ll tell you they LIKE being chased.”

    Yes, I know. That’s another reason why this article had to be made! LOL.

    Men have said that, and women have listened, to their detriment. Women should know that that is BS.

    I knew guys wouldn’t be fond of this article, because it could be read as making men out to be not so “nice”, “unevolved”, blah blah. I knew you in particular would not like this article.

    Well, you can’t please everyone so I don’t even try. Sometimes things get uncomfortable; this is an uncomfortable topic. No one wants to be told they can’t do something or that they have a tendency to do something. But I’m leaving my idealism out of this.

    “if making things easy for the guy causes him to devalue the girl, then why isn’t the opposite true for men making things easy for women?”

    See above responses to smartacus…

    “Why are you assuming that men base their value of women they desire on the amount of chasing required to catch her?”

    I’m not. Note that the amount of chasing on the man’s part was never mentioned in this article; that wasn’t an accident. The point is that he should be the one to chase.

    “What nonchalant attitude? What specifically is nonchalant about starting a relationship with another person?”

    This reply doesn’t seem to actually be responding to the portion quoted, so skip…

    “I disagree. Most men like being pursued, chased, admired, sought after. All people enjoy that kind of flattery.”

    No, they don’t! Lol.

    Initially, yes they do. Of course it flatters them particularly if they find the woman attractive. But after say, a few days, it’s just bothersome. I’ve seen this many times, with a wide variety of men; I have several male friends. Men will even laugh to their friends about a girl who is chasing them.

    Now, some few men do like being chased or don’t mind it. Some are just very free-thinking, others rarely ever get such female attention so they savor it.

    But most do not, and when I pressed publish on this post I told myself that it didn’t matter if every guy in the world replied to disagree with this article — their responses to women chasing them in real time proves it.

    This is a topic I’ve studied for a very long time and I guess people are used to my liberal, we-are-all-equal, mode of thinking so it comes as a surprise that I’m saying no men and women do not think the same on this. But alas.

    “you’re still showing a somewhat insulting generalization of men (and women, to some extent)”

    I wish it weren’t true. Oh, how I wish — that would make my life. I really would hope that most men didn’t mind women pursuing them because I’m not really a subtle kind of woman when it comes to men I like, I’m not patient, and I want to make things happen. But it is, and women like me just have to accept that.

    “Sorry, but in real-life relationships, a woman who doesn’t call, initiate contact, arrange plans, compliment or send gifts is a person who is likely to be lonely for a VERY long time.”

    Come on now, we both know that most women leave the majority of the calling, arranging, and complimenting to men. They maybe do 10 or 15 percent of the work in dating, at most. Sometimes the numbers are slightly larger than that, especially amongst younger people. But if numbers are a lot larger, well, then things aren’t as successful.

    Jess essentially didn’t do a thing to get SG; she let him do everything. Heck, I was thinking, “Shouldn’t she do something… anything?” But here she is already eating meals he prepared for her and having him write love notes, after 2 months.

    And she isn’t the only one. Jess and other women know the score (often from experience) … do not chase.

  25. Alee,

    No… It’s based on men I’ve known and studied, platonically, romantically, and casually.

    No offense Alee, but from what you’ve shared on this blog you don’t really all that much dating/male experience… Whereas some of us, me included, have actually dated in the real world extensively…

    And that’s one of the reasons why your post seems based on stereotypes, because only someone who hasn’t done much real dating/relationships would think they were representative of men.

    No, they don’t! Lol.

    Initially, yes they do. Of course it flatters them particularly if they find the woman attractive. But after say, a few days, it’s just bothersome. I’ve seen this time and time again, with a wide variety of men; I have several male friends. Men will even laugh to their friends about a girl who is chasing them.

    Again, stereotypes. Oy vey.

    Did you even consider other particulars about the girl in question? About the guy? Is she attractive? Is he attracted to her? Does she call every day? Text every day? Does she make plans via assuming he’ll say yes? Is the guy even taking this seriously?

    So many women assume things about men, but get them completely wrong. Le sigh. Remember that movie, He’s Just Not That Into You? You should add it to your “must watch” list.

    Yet you use confirmation of Jess’s experience with SG as proof-positive for your theory. However, did you ever consider that guys chase because women MAKE them chase? Guys chase because they’re expected to chase, told to chase, enculturated to pursue women as if they’re some special type of cookie, but again, in reality, men want things to be mutual. The only problem is when the rubber meets the road and we have to pursue women in order to find a companion.

    That said, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this position =/

    But if you’re set on working things out with Kansas Guy, or whoever you decide to date in the future, you’ll need to take initiative and stop blaming the guy OR yourself when it does’t work out, because when you actually find someone compatible, making the guy do all the work, hanging back, etc… it’s only going to end badly.

    Taking it from someone with a lot of dating experience, especially the kind of negative experiences that teach quite a lot.

  26. Zek,

    “No offense Alee, but from what you’ve shared on this blog you don’t really all that much dating/male experience…”

    Lolwhat?

    You have to be kidding me — you don’t know anything about me if you think that. No one’s ever said anything like that to me in my life because it’s just so off-base…I had my first kiss when I was 4, if that gives you some perspective.

    I’ve dated a lot of men, a lot. Not saying I’m particularly proud of it, but so the story goes. If anything, the single life is something I don’t know a whole lot about.

    “Only someone who hasn’t done much real dating/relationships would think they were representative of men.”

    Right… I guess the women who agreed with the post, and will agree with the post, also don’t have any experience with dating? We’re all just talking about something we have no idea about?

    …Do you read what you type? A person isn’t clueless simply because their view is different from yours.

    “Yet you use confirmation of Jess’s experience with SG as proof-positive for your theory.”

    No, as an example. There are plenty where that came from.

    In any case, what’s your example or proof? “Because I said so”?

    But more importantly,

    Yes, I do take offense to your entire comment because you’re taking pot shots at me and my personal life. That’s the thing I don’t really get about you — as soon as you disagree with someone in discussion you start making personal comments about their life, character, etc. Time and time again you do this, to everyone. I can almost time when you’re going to bring someone’s personal life or character into a debate.

    FYI, you don’t “win” just because you bring a person’s personal life into an impersonal debate as a way of dismissing them; doing so is not an argument. I wonder sometimes how you even get along with people other than those that agree with you on everything 100 percent. Because you seem incapable of attacking the argument, and not the person, and it’s completely unsavory. It’s also unnecessary and on this blog, out of line.

    The cheek of you to even mention my personal life; how dare you. Don’t ever even think about bringing KG into a discussion that has nothing to do with him (and for the record, we’re fine, thanks for caring…not), or anyone else in my offline life, ever again, or you lose your commenting privileges at this blog. And trust me, I won’t think twice about it, nor will I ever go back on it.

    Now I suggest you think long and hard about how (and if) you respond to this.

  27. Well I can say for certain that there have been guys I knew initially liked me and then was turned off because they perceived my behavior as desperate. I never did anything stalkerish (hell im too shy to do anything overt anyway) but just giving them too much attention too fast to where it was obvious I was all their’s if they wanted turned them off and these were guys that had already expressed their interest in me, I didnt even approach them first.

    I dont think men always value women the most that are the hardest to get because if she’s too hard to get, most men give up anyway that is true. I just think men like women who they may know is attracted to them but still has that mystery surrounding her at least initially. They get a high off that whole “does she like me or not” mantra. Of course that definitely works both ways and if a man seems too clingy that will turn many women off as well. The difference is we are less likely to call that man desperate and crazy and laugh to our friends about it and if we do call a man desperate or crazy, its cause he really is not simply because he initiated everything first and seemed eager to date us.

    Ive had guy friends that will call a girl stalkerish to me just because she calls him everyday and nothing else. I know men are flattered by an attractive woman being attracted to them but I do think many men enjoy initiating things and having the woman respond to that because it makes them feel like a man. It seems like when women initiate things too much (before a relationship is formed that is) they may be flattered at first but then end up resenting the woman for it. This doesnt apply to all guys of course but it seems like it does to alot.

  28. Actually, I do think this post is sadly true for both men and women. Majority of people don’t like to be chased; majority of people – sadly – value those partners they have to “earn” in some way, not the ones who chased them. Sure, everybody appreciates the attention, but being happy because of the attention and actually valuing a relationship with this person are two different things.

    The only difference between men and women is the way they are socially allowed to show their attraction. I don’t think men are allowed to chase much or to show their appreciation for women much before they start being disregarded as desperate. But they are allowed to approach a woman openly without anybody seeing that as desperate or strange. Women aren’t allowed to do that.

    Still, at the end of the day, I don’t think men are allowed to do much chasing. They will start to seem desperate pretty quickly, and most women dislike it. Women like to fight for a guy’s attention, too, and they hate when a guy presents himself to them on a silver platter.

    Sadly, my experience is that most of the people are like this. It’s not something I advocate and it’s not something I understand. (I understand it intellectually but I don’t know how to play this game).

    That being said, there will always be people who refuse to play the game or don’t know how to do it or aren’t like this. However, it’s impossible to meet one if you are in the “must pay attention to this” mode. Because it will be impossible for you to react the right way to this person’s behavior and you might become either suspicious or disregard him/her altogether.

    Say you are on the first date and a guy tells you he loves you (even before the first kiss or anything). You only met him a few days ago and this is your first date. What would you think? What would you do?

  29. Well if I met a guy a few days ago and he’s already telling me he loves me, Id think what a f*cking loser but ive had that experience several times with black men in particular. You cant take that seriously but just them thinking that could work and is pretty pathetic. Thats an example of extreme stupidity though so thats gonna turn any woman off.

  30. ^Jess, lol.

    @Mira,

    It would depend on the guy, the vibe I get from him, etc. It wouldn’t automatically turn me off/make me cross him out, but then again I wouldn’t believe he loved me so soon anyway.

    Not that I put much weight on the word love; his actions over time will tell me if he really loves me, not his words.

  31. Well, it sure depends on the guy and the girl. But it’s sure seen as a thing you do not want to say on a first date, even if you do feel it.

    This is a real life example, btw. I met a guy, went out on a date and after a walk he hugged me and told me this.

    I’m talking about my husband, btw.

    So, yes, there are different examples. I sure didn’t want a guy who’d play a game because I don’t know how to do it. Was I thinking this was too soon? Yes and no. Yes, because it seemed different than what other guys do, and no because I wasn’t put off by this. I figured, if it doesn’t turn out well, at least I will have something to remember and I’ll have sex (after 3 years of being single), and at least I’ll have a boyfriend for a while. It seemed much better than the single life I had for three years before that.

    As for being a loser, he’s socially awkward (though he can pretend better than I can, at least for a while) but I don’t mind it. So I guess this is an example where a honest guy would be rejected because he didn’t know how to play the game. But it’s ok. People who don’t know how to play it better stick together or else they will never find a decent relationship since they don’t know how to get it the way other people can.

    What I liked about my husband from the start is that I never had to wait for him to call me or to wonder if he liked me or not. I also liked the fact I didn’t have to play hard to get since he’s not a guy who’d disrespect a woman just because she sleeps with him “too soon” in a relationship. I also liked that I never had to fight for his affection or attention or to do anything special for him to like me. It was such a relief.

    Of course, being with socially awkward person has it’s problems, especially when it comes to communication with other people. He’s bad at it, which sometimes poses problems with social life (he never goes anywhere with me and prefers to stay at home). He’s also pessimistic. But these things, even problematic, aren’t what is in the center of the relationship.

    Still, to get here for me, it had to be with a guy who doesn’t know how to play the game, or who doesn’t want to. That’s because I can’t do it either. But most of the people, imo, do try even if they aren’t good at it. I’d say, if you see it’s not working, leave it. You will be hurt anyway, but at least this way you have a chance for something good. While otherwise, you will sure be hurt because you will never be satisfied with a person who will only respect you if you play a game and you don’t know how to. I’ve been in such relationships and it sucks a big time.

  32. Mira, The story of you and your husband is touching and romantic and I would never look at it as weird that he told you he loved you on the first date but any American guy who said that to me on the first date(if we really didnt know eachother prior to that date) I would know he’s a liar for sure.

    I play the game a little bit initially but I wouldnt say I ever play hard to get. If I like a guy I respond to whatever he initiates that im comfortable with, I just make sure I dont make it too obvious how bad I want him until I know its mutual. Looking like the fool is a humiliating experience and been through it enough to know I never want to experience that again.

  33. @ Alee,

    That’s the thing, someone can tell me that they love me but their actions says otherwise. I feel that sometimes guys misuse the words “I love you”, I think some of them don’t even know the difference between “I like you” and “I love you”…… especially in my Culture.

  34. Oh, believe me, Serbian guys are the same, or even worse. Because they’d do anything to keep their pride intact, even if that means not to have sex or any success with girls. Hey, girls are the same.

    But to me, there are worse things than humiliation. I’d rather be humiliated in romantic relationships than not try at all or be alone.

    Or maybe I just don’t know how to play the game at all.

  35. Jess,

    “The story of you and your husband is touching and romantic and I would never look at it as weird that he told you he loved you on the first date but any American guy who said that to me on the first date(if we really didnt know eachother prior to that date) I would know he’s a liar for sure.’

    True, some guys who say that early on have ulterior motives. But he doesn’t necessarily have to be a liar. He could really have just fallen in love you, but it’s more likely that he doesn’t know what love is and is infatuated with you.

    Mkhululi,

    “I feel that sometimes guys misuse the words “I love you”, I think some of them don’t even know the difference between “I like you” and “I love you” ‘

    Yes, a million times.

    That word has lost so much meaning from its overuse and abuse.

    “When you say you love me, it don’t mean a thing/If you care, you’ll be there…”

    [You'll notice I have a song verse for almost every situation in life. I swear, I could spend the whole day speaking in song lyrics and I'd make complete sense. Lol.]

  36. As for the chasing, I don’t think I ever chased a man. It’s not because I wanted them to chase me, but because I assumed they wouldn’t like me. I guess my lack of self-esteem helped here.

    It didn’t help in relationships, though. Most people don’t like clingy partners.

  37. Alee, But he doesn’t necessarily have to be a liar. He could really have just fallen in love you, but it’s more likely that he doesn’t know what love is and is infatuated with you.

    If it was the very first date I would more than likely think thats just a flat out lie (especially if we hadnt gotten to know eachother at all prior) or he could be a mental case. This doesnt apply to you and your husband though Mira cause I know there are special cases.

  38. Jess,

    “If it was the very first date I would more than likely think thats just a flat out lie…or he could be a mental case. This doesnt apply to you and your husband though Mira”

    Lol. I love how you’re all, “No, those men are either liars or bat sh*t crazy… but not your husband, Mira. He’s just awesome like that.”

    But in Mira’s case, I think they had already gotten to know each other a bit even though they hadn’t gone out. So it wasn’t a first first date.

  39. lol

    But we are special cases, in a way. Maybe it’s because we both grew up without one parent (with another parent having drinking problems), and maybe it’s because we’re just complicated as that. But we are both awkward and vulnerable and irrational and prone to pessimism. I’d say it wouldn’t be easy for other people to live with us. Or to read us.

    We met a week or so before the date. My mother invited him once to our place for lunch. We talked a lot and I even invited him to my friend’s astronomy presentation (that happened after our first date, but I invited him the first time I met him – was that making a move?) I don’t know if these things count as dates or what.

  40. Alee,

    I am sincerely sorry that you felt personally attacked by my comments. I based them on the various information you’ve shared here, and elsewhere. You are more than welcome to ban me if/when you feel the need to do so.

    As a man, I disagreed strongly with your assumptions about men, as they seemed insulting. However, you say they reflect your personal experience and that’s something I can’t contradict. If you feel that men need to chase, that women need to be chased, that men don’t value women who pursue them, and that women should put less effort into pursuing a guy she likes, then that’s how you feel.

    That said, I also had my first kiss at 4, I also have had a lot of dating experience I’m not particularly proud of, and as a man speaking about men I can tell you that most men like being pursued. They do not like being stalked. And neither of those are equatable, though many women have made that mistake according to most men.

    Ultimately though we’re all going to have our own opinions on the subject, whether they’re accurate or not will have to be something we decide for ourselves.

    As for me, I’m not “in it to win it”. I don’t care about winning or being right. My only intention was, and is, to speak up when I have something to say about the topic at hand as far as this blog is concerned.

    Obviously I failed in that regard, according to your reaction. And again, for that I am sorry.

    Take care.

  41. Zek,

    I think you might be (and correct me if I’m wrong) confusing this post for an advice column. Nobody says this is how things should be, or that women have to do X or Y or that men have to do it. Well, maybe it was written as such, but to me, this post is only stating how things are. It’s up to the individuals to decide whether they want to act like this or whether this applies to them and their dating experience.

    I can tell you that most men like being pursued. They do not like being stalked.

    So maybe we can say that men misinterpret women’s pursuits as overly stalkerish, maybe that’s it? I mean, I bet guys like to be liked and I bet they like when they sense a girl is interested in them and is actually doing something about it and not just standing in corner waiting for them to approach. But “doing something” is about those subtle signs and hints more than the open pursuit.

    I mean, an intuitive guy will pick up the signs if there’s a girl who talks to him more often than his friends, or a girl who just happened to be there near him and asked him about the lighter or some situation I described above. I mean, many guys will think a girl finds them attractive and they would act on it. This is a completely different situation to a girl who approaches a guy, hands him her phone number and when he calls she invites him for dinner at a restaurant that she pays and later calls him every day and texts him all the time without him doing anything to reciprocates. I mean, most guys wouldn’t fall in love with such a girl.

    But I guess my point in this conversation was that most girls wouldn’t like a guy like that, either.

    My advice, though, is that people should take some time to think about what kind of people they are and what they want in a partner. And then to act accordingly. It starts with banal things: if you hate going out, you don’t seek for a partner at a night club (well, anything can happen, but you get the idea). If you’re sick of playing this game and if you want someone who wouldn’t judge you negatively because of it, find a person who is bad at the game or socially awkward or wahtever.

    On an unrelated note, what’s up with all those kissing at the age of 4? I was almost 15 when I had mine. (But I had an almost hand job sexual experience at the age of 6 – does that count?)

  42. Zek,

    “I am sincerely sorry that you felt personally attacked by my comments.”

    …And what was I supposed to think of it?

    It was a personal attack — you deliberately introduced personal information into this discussion to discredit me.

    Let’s not act like you didn’t know what you were doing and its intended effect. People do such things in debate to make a person look bad and put them on the defense by personally insulting them. As if a person’s life has anything to do with the strength of their argument.

    I’m just put off that you had the mind frame, and deemed this discussion crucial enough, to ever approach me in such a manner.

    “I based them on the various information you’ve shared here, and elsewhere.”

    See, that was my fault — sharing any information with people here.

    I thought that I could trust commenters here to have enough consideration for me not to hold this information against me and use it against me. Despite knowing how iffy and plain mean people can be.

    However I see that I was wrong, once again, in sharing anything. And then people wonder why I rarely do. But don’t worry, it will never happen again, that’s for certain.

    “You are more than welcome to ban me if/when you feel the need to do so.”

    Let me make this clear so there are no surprises:

    Don’t ever come at me like that again.

    Or you will be banned, and there will be no discussion about it. No one here is so special that I will allow them to personally attack me. We all have disagreements but I don’t personally attack anyone here, so I would expect that no one would do that to me.

    I said this blog would be peaceful, fun, and free of attacks, and I meant it. If that means I have to start getting rid of people, so be it. No one is irreplaceable.

    @All

    That goes for anyone, personally attacking anyone else on this blog: you will lose your commenting privileges. If it is your first comment, you and your comment will never see the light of day on this blog. Attack the argument, do not attack the person, or you are not welcome here.

    I didn’t want to have to be too strict on this blog because I don’t like rules. But I see people are going a little insane so I have to.

  43. Mira,

    “I think you might be (and correct me if I’m wrong) confusing this post for an advice column. Nobody says this is how things should be, or that women have to do X or Y or that men have to do it. Well, maybe it was written as such, but to me, this post is only stating how things are.”

    I don’t think things should be this way, obviously I don’t. But more than enough women, including me, have experienced it to be this way. So I’m not going to close my ears and eyes and idealistically believe that men are just so eager to have women pursue them, because that’s not helping anyone.

    The post was written in response to another post (which itself was written in response to an advice post). So in that sense it is advice, but no one has to take it. I’m just putting it out there, so people can think about it.

    “It’s up to the individuals to decide whether they want to act like this or whether this applies to them and their dating experience.”

    Right: no one has to do anything. If there are women out there that want to pursue men, be my guest. I can’t and won’t stop you… Everyone will ultimately have to live their own life. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s a very good idea and counter to the aim of securing a relationship.

    “So maybe we can say that men misinterpret women’s pursuits as overly stalkerish, maybe that’s it?… “doing something” is about those subtle signs and hints more than the open pursuit.”

    Whatever the reason, men do not respond favorably to women pursuing them, despite their many claims that they do. They get tired of it, are annoyed by it, take advantage of it, or simply think it is wrong and the woman is being too aggressive.

    Women don’t always have to be so subtle; guys oftentimes don’t understand “hints”. Approaching a guy and being friendly is good and can help (at least here, don’t know about Serbia). But I believe that once he knows you’re interested, you should let him respond to this interest in his own way and on his own time, not be in his face/phone/email all the time.

  44. I hadn’t been around in a while (I’ve kinda been away from blogs for a bit, period), but I saw your posts on BB&W and thought I’d mosey on over… then I saw this thread and planned to comment… and read the comments and well… ai yi yi! :)

    But here’s my thought… I completely agree with your post, and everything you wrote is how things played out in my dating life. In fact, it was the men close to me in my own life (dad, brother, close friends in relationships) who told me to stop being so assertive and sit back and let a man chase more… they said that a man who was truly interested in me would make it clear through his words and actions, and there wasn’t much I had to do to make the early stages of a relationship happen besides showing my appreciation and reciprocity.

    So, I was profuse with the thank yous, I accepted second and third dates and in one case, when a guy’s birthday came within a few weeks of our meeting, I gave him a $10 gift card at his favorite bookstore. You would have thought I’d given him a million bucks based on his reaction, but he just said he really appreciated the thought. However, he wouldn’t have gotten anything if he hadn’t shown some effort and done some chasing.

    Like you, I’ve learned that as much as we want things to be “equal” between men and women, we’re different… and our behaviors and responses will therefore be different. The sooner more women embrace this, the better their relational lives will be.

  45. A good questions, then: WHY do men claim they like to be pursued, but at the end of the day don’t respond well to it?

    I don’t think men lie when they say they want to be pursued. I believe they are honest. Still, this is confusing.

    It’s a bit similar (in confusion) to when women say they want to be with a nice guy, but somehow end up with bad boys. I’ve heard so many men complain about it and are confused. The thing is, what women consider a nice guy isn’t what guys think a nice guy is. So I bet it’s a similar situation here: what guys think it’s women pursuing them isn’t what women see as pursuing someone.

    Women don’t always have to be so subtle; guys oftentimes don’t understand “hints”. Approaching a guy and being friendly is good and can help (at least here, don’t know about Serbia). But I believe that once he knows you’re interested, you should let him respond to this interest in his own way and on his own time, not be in his face/phone/email all the time.

    Yup, it’s exactly like that here. As a girl, you are not expected to sit in the corner doing nothing (well, you can do that if you like, and if you’re pretty, guys will approach). But if you like a guy you are more than welcomed to initiate friendly contact – but the key word here is FRIENDLY. It is assumed women are friendly individuals who like to have many people in their lives, so initiating a friendly, casual contact with a guy (or anybody) is not seen as suspicious.

    However, once you do that, if a guy is interested, he should take it from there and bring it to the next level by making his romantic/sexual interest known first. If a girl was there because of it, she will accept it. If not, they will enter in a friend zone. (This is often so confusing for a guy, because girls often do initiate contact because they want to be friends or – sad to say this – in order for a guy to have a crush on them to boost their ego but without any plans of actually dating the guy). So this is where I feel bad about the guys. But the thing is, most of the guys, if a girl shows this friendly interest in them, will make a move. That is usually the best way to start a relationship or to approach a guy.

    What you aren’t “allowed” to do (in my culture at least) is to approach a guy with a clear romantic/sexual interest. It backfires fast, by either making you seem desperate/crazy, a slut, or madly in love with a guy, and all of these options are bad.

    This is the main gender difference, at least in my culture. A guy can approach with a clear romantic/sexual interest; heck, even if he approaches as a friend it is assumed he’s doing this because of a romantic/sexual interest because many guys (but not all) don’t even notice girls they aren’t interested in. A girl can’t make an open approach: she has to cover it under friendship pretext and then the guy should make a move.

    However, like I explained earlier, what happens after the initial approach can go either way. A girl can be doomed desperate or a guy can be doomed desperate. This is where cat/mouse game begins, when both of them are trying to establish who is the “stronger link”, so to speak in the relationship (= the one who cares less). The goal is to always be the one who cares less and who invests less in the relationship so you can keep your pride intact. Crazy, I know.

    This is why I don’t play this game. I am an affectionate person who is clingy and I’m not going to pretend that I’m not. I don’t expect a guy to invest all his life in me after a first date, but I do expect to be his only romantic/sexual interest and I expect him to be devoted to me in this aspect. I offer the same. It’s painful and maddening to me to pretend I don’t care about someone I do. If it ends badly (and let’s face it, it often had), well, at least I gained a new life experience, had someone to talk to (I don’t have many friends, especially not male friends), and I had sex. I don’t care if I’m humiliated and I don’t care what people think about me in this aspect. People generally don’t have a good opinion on me because I’m all awkward and like something that went straight from the Big Bang Theory (if you’re familiar with the show you’ll know what I’m talking about). I am already labeled a weirdo and something that’s not quite right.

    It sucks to be labeled as such, but it also gives you a certain freedom to make the choices you find appropriate for you, instead of doing what is socially acceptable.

  46. Hi Bunny,

    “I completely agree with your post, and everything you wrote is how things played out in my dating life. In fact, it was the men close to me in my own life (dad, brother, close friends in relationships) who told me to stop being so assertive and sit back and let a man chase more…”

    You have some good men in your lives. I wish other girls and women had men that would just tell this to them straight. Some women don’t even realize that what they’re doing is considered chasing; they’re just being themselves.

    It’s pretty rough in the dating world initially for more direct women because women are still expected to be subtle and unassuming.

    “The sooner more women embrace this, the better their relational lives will be.”

    It’s hard because on the one hand you just want to be yourself and not worry about “the dating game” and all these tricks and rules you have to navigate. But from what I’ve seen, you either accept that these things will not change in your dating lifetime, or you suffer.

  47. Alee,
    I do realize I’ve been fortunate, but even then, sometimes you think those good men are too “old fashioned” and don’t know what they’re talking about! I remember a male former co-worker in his 40s (which was super duper old to me back when he gave his advice) telling me the absolute truth about a certain situation, and I thanked him again about a year ago when I saw him and told him I was married. I said that I hoped his daughters were listening to him and he said, “They think I don’t know what I’m talking about!”

    The bad thing is, even some of my trusted female friends and family members (my mother included) gave terrible advice about dealing with certain men that really equated to chasing. They seemed to think that if I showed a guy how much I really really cared about him, that would do the trick. Was it any wonder that I was mired in the abyss of uninterested men? Hmmm…

    And you’re right, I don’t think most women realize when they’re falling into the chase. We might just think that we’re being nice by nature and that we’re just giving people and doing something for a man that we’d do for a female friend. Sometimes though, I find women like to use that as an excuse, because we don’t go all out for a woman who’s not a friend… so why are we going all out for a man we really don’t know unless there’s some degree of interest… which therefore, is chasing!

    As for the game thing, I just say that life is a game. We’re all playing a game to some degree as we go about our daily lives. This idea that relationships are supposed to be free of that dance humans do is simply wishful thinking or a flat-out denial of real human behavior. The men I dealt with who claimed they wanted so-called true, honest and emotionally open relationships turned out to be the biggest game-players and just flat out nastiest individuals one would want to meet. I swear, it never failed to end up like that.

  48. Mira,

    “A good questions, then: WHY do men claim they like to be pursued, but at the end of the day don’t respond well to it?”

    My take on it is that there are a number of reasons why. Sometimes it’s a combination of these reasons, sometimes it’s one. Here are some:

    #1 Guys’ idea of pursuing, and what women actually do when pursuing, are completely different. IME, what women see as no big deal they may think is near stalking.

    Your average guy is easily “scared” by any sort of assertiveness in a woman. I’ve seen that some men will think a woman is chasing them, and shy away from her, when she’s really just being friendly and has no romantic interest in them.

    #2 Men like the idea of someone being interested enough in them to chase them, and they like the idea of not having to do all the work. But they don’t like how it pans out in reality because of #1 and because part of the fun of the dating process is not knowing the person and the way they’ll react to things you do, and wondering where things are going. When a woman chases you, all of that is taken away.

    #3 Initially they do like it, but eventually they get tired of a woman contacting them, wanting to go out, and expecting things from them that they may not be ready to give.

    #4 In their mind they envision a woman they would actually chase, chasing them. Of course in reality your chaser chooses you and not the other way around.

    #5 Their rational, liberal 21st century brain tells them that if men are allowed to pursue women, women should be allowed to pursue men as well. Unfortunately the rational brain isn’t always in tune with a person’s immediate responses.

    #6 This relates to #1… When men say they like women to pursue them, what they really mean is they like for women to approach them and show interest, and maybe initiate a couple of conversations. Women don’t think that is really “pursuing” but that’s pretty much all men can take before you’re officially psycho stalker. LOL.

    There are probably some I’m missing, but those are just off the top of my head.

    Note that many guys who say they like to be pursued by women have never actually been pursued before. Once they have been, they might be singing a different tune (or not, because people have a way of telling themselves that one time [or 10] was different and unusual of them).

  49. Bunny,

    “sometimes you think those good men are too “old fashioned” and don’t know what they’re talking about!”

    I know it. Eventually they learn, it’s just sad that learning is often frustrating, embarrassing, or heartbreaking.

    I know one guy said straight up to a girl I know about her chasing him: “You’re doing too much, I’m not liking this.” She asked sincerely, “So what should I do then?” He shrugged and said, “Wait until I come talk to you, wait until I initiate things with you.”

    I kid you no lie, he actually used the word “initiate”! She was more than a little annoyed because she knew he never would “initiate” anything with her on his own, but that was probably some of the best advice she’ll ever get in dating.

    There is some wisdom in conventional ideas about love and dating. Not all of them, but some.

    “The bad thing is, even some of my trusted female friends and family members (my mother included) gave terrible advice about dealing with certain men…They seemed to think that if I showed a guy how much I really really cared about him, that would do the trick. Was it any wonder that I was mired in the abyss of uninterested men?”

    LOL, not at all. Too bad showing a guy you really, really care about him often does nothing but make him think you’re either crazy or damaged goods.

    The only time you should be so forthright about your feelings is when you’ve already been in a relationship with the guy for some time.

    “The men I dealt with who claimed they wanted so-called true, honest and emotionally open relationships turned out to be the biggest game-players and just flat out nastiest individuals one would want to meet.”

    Oh, really? Tell me about it! No, really: tell me about it. :)

  50. LOL, not at all. Too bad showing a guy you really, really care about him often does nothing but make him think you’re either crazy or damaged goods.

    The only time you should be so forthright about your feelings is when you’ve already been in a relationship with the guy for some time.

    Agreed on both accounts, totally!

    As for sharing… uh, I feel really embarrassed by some of the foolishness I experienced, so I’d tell you in a private email or something… although then again, compared to some things I’ve heard, my story is probably a 3 on a 1-10 WTF scale, but for me, I’m like, “What the heck was I thinking?”

    Let’s just say this guy was a self-described new agey type who was very into self-improvement and metaphysical types of spiritual experiences, but if he didn’t go to one of his healing/chanting/meditation sessions for more than a week, he’d talk about how irritable and “low” he would get… and then indirectly blame me because he chose to spend that time with me instead of going to a service where he could spiritually refuel himself. Yeah… this didn’t relationship last very long, but even still, I should have made him go poof after two months or less!!!

  51. Bunny,

    “As for sharing… uh, I feel really embarrassed by some of the foolishness I experienced, so I’d tell you in a private email or something…”

    You know my email if you want to send!

    I doubt it’s worse than anyone else’s dating horror stories. Sometimes you just look back and kick yourself like, “Self, never again, never again!”

    Although I almost choked on my food at, “If he didn’t go to one of his healing/chanting/meditation sessions for more than a week, he’d talk about how irritable and “low” he would get… and then indirectly blame me because he chose to spend that time with me instead of going to a service where he could spiritually refuel himself.’

    LOL.

  52. From personal experience, chasing has never worked for me. I believe that it’s ok to initiate conversations with men if your interested, but then let them take over from there. A man knows if he is interested in a woman, and will find ways to make it happen.
    ***Side note Alee, I just got engaged last night!!! He pursued me from the beginning, and I never chased him. :))))

  53. Nikisha,

    Wow, what a wonderful surprise!!! That’s so great! I’m so happy for you. Love is definitely in the air these days. :D

    ETA: Now I can officially call him Mr. Nikisha!

  54. Hi Alee,

    Great article. I have to agree with you, from my own experiences and those of my friends. I’ve only been in two long term relationships, but I have dated a lot of men in between those. The two relationships – I never did any chasing, and only had to show that their interest was reciprocated.

    I dated online for a while, I’m pretty sure everyone here has at least heard of OKCupid. Messages from the founders and articles on that website encourage everyone (calling out women esp.) to initiate contact with people whose profiles they’re intrigued by. One infamous article especially encourages black women to do so. O_o I tried the bold approach first, but even when the guys would message you back, oftentimes it was just because…well you were there.

    The same held true for offline experiences for me. I’m currently in grad school so there are a plethora of men in the area to date. When I’ve ‘chased’ after a guy (and much to my embarrassment I have), it did not work out at all. Once burned, twice shy. Never again.

  55. Hey Angie!

    “I’m pretty sure everyone here has at least heard of OKCupid. Messages from the founders and articles on that website encourage everyone (calling out women esp.) to initiate contact with people whose profiles they’re intrigued by.”

    No, no, no!

    Lol, kidding… It’s probably a little different online and on dating sites. I think sending the first message is akin to the initial hello/friendly chat you initiate when you meet a guy offline. So that might be okay, although it’s probably less helpful than it is offline because when people are on a site specifically for dating, they’re already in a contained area, looking for a potential partner and sifting through profiles. So if a guy hasn’t already sent you a message, it makes you wonder…

    “One infamous article especially encourages black women to do so.”

    Oh, right!

    So they can publish more “studies” where black women get the fewest responses. *eye roll*

    I remember they said that black women sent out the most messages… well now it’s no wonder why, with articles like that. And the more messages you send out, the higher your non-response rate is likely to be, percentage-wise.

    “When I’ve ‘chased’ after a guy (and much to my embarrassment I have), it did not work out at all.”

    Many of us have been there… no need to be embarrassed, at least not for too long after it happened.

  56. Congrats, Nikisha!

    As for the embarrassment, I agree it can happen, but is that SO horrible? I don’t know. I always thought keeping yourself from the embarrassment and keeping your pride was overrated.

    However, if something isn’t working, then it’s not working, and you shouldn’t waste your energy or emotions on it. The point is, if a guy wants you you won’t have to chase. If you feel like you have to chase to catch him, he’s not for you. The right guy would never make you chase.

    Note that the opposite is true: the right girl won’t make a guy chase. I know there are people who claim chase is exciting and great, but I don’t understand it so a guy who’d like me only if he had to chase me is definitely not the guy for me. So I guess it’s all down to knowing yourself and what you want in a partner.

    This all being said, there are many people who don’t play the game or don’t know how to. It’s best for them to find each other. Trying to be with those who accept these rules will turn out badly.

  57. Mira,

    “As for the embarrassment, I agree it can happen, but is that SO horrible?”

    Yes, it is so horrible, so horrible. Lol.

    “I always thought keeping yourself from the embarrassment and keeping your pride was overrated.”

    Not overrated!

    “The point is, if a guy wants you you won’t have to chase.”

    Agreed, times a million.

    “Note that the opposite is true: the right girl won’t make a guy chase.”

    I don’t know about that one; women are pretty much taught to let men chase them. The difference is that women don’t run very hard or very fast when you’re chasing them, so it’s more like reaching over and grabbing. :)

  58. Nikisha,

    “LOL! Thank you so much! I hope we can meet in person one day! I would love to meet you :) !”

    Likewise!

    Though I feel like I’ve already met you since I’ve seen so many videos and pictures of you. I’ll be watching one of your videos, eating a snack and listening intently, nodding my head like you’re right there in the room talking with me. Lol.

    And oh, good time to tell you — I had this dream a couple of times that we met and had our own little photo shoot. It was so fun and we had the hottest outfits and hair! LOL: I’m weird, I know.

  59. I guess it’s just me. I always found personal comfort or happiness above pride (and I see pride as something related to others, the way others see you). I’d rather be happy than to keep my pride or to have people like me (again, I associate pride with the way you are perceived by people).

    I’m not saying I like to be humiliated; in fact, I take it very badly and it’s not fun at all. However, I’d always rather try and fail (even if it means to be humiliated) than not try at all.

    But I found out that dating and relationships (at least the initial stage) should NOT be about anybody trying and failing. It should be easy and natural. Later in the relationship is where compromise comes (if you want to work on the relationships, that is), but the initial stages should be easy and effortless, or else it’s not worth it (at least for me).

    As for chasing, it depends on the girl. But I don’t find it exciting and many guys I know don’t like it, so I guess there’s no need for it. Really. If you need a guy to chase you to keep him interested, then he’s not worth it.

    But this is just my experience, and I’m not… well, “normal” when it comes to human interaction. I just don’t understand social cues so any game playing is extremely confusing and impossible for me to play. I also don’t enjoy the thrill of being chased, and to be honest, I’ve never been chased in my life to know (though it doesn’t sound particularly entertaining). I also don’t think that a guy who is right for me is the one who enjoys the chase. There’s nothing wrong or immoral about it, if both parties are into it, but that’s just not for me.

    That being said, I’ve never chased a guy (initially), so I don’t know what it’s like, but since I am a clingy person (and it shows), they’d often run away as soon as my clinginess would manifest itself. But it was my fault for being with guys who wanted girls to keep them at a distance or to make them chase. Nobody forced me to be there, so I guess I am only one to blame.

  60. I dont necessarily like being chased and when I have really liked a guy, he didn’t have to chase me. With SG, he’s simply just initated everything ever since my wave to him that made him come over and talk to me and Ive responded positively to everything he’s done. He’s never chased me. It was natural coming together.

    I just think when a man is really interested he will make attempts to make it happen an even if they have a fear of rejection, they WANT to make it happen so they will take a risk. I use to have crushes on guys that I just thought they were so shy and thats why they werent doing anything about it but then later find out they went after some other girl so unless a man is abnormally shy to the point where he needs professinoal help to combat that problem, he will find a way to make his affections known and the woman really does not have to do anyhing but respond.

    Thats why for me being humiliated or looking like the fool is all for nothing because if a man wants you, he will try period. So I dont think (just my opinion) its worth a woman risking her pride and putting herself out there before he does cause in my experiences, when a woman has to do that the guy wasnt that interested to begin with.

  61. And that also goes for situations where the guy approached first and then the woman acts totally crazy for the guy immediately and starts initating things more than he does, thats not worth the humiliation. I know there are special cases but if you know you really like someone and its sincere, theres no harm in waiting a little bit to express just how much you like them, show interest but still keep your cards close to your chest in the inital stage. Theres no rush so why as a woman does one need to just show everything immediately before seeing if this situation and this man is for real? Broken hearts are not fun especially when its because of a situation where you feel like the fool and the person was never that into you.

  62. or feel like the fool because they were into you at one point but going after them scared them away. This is especially hard for anxious types and ive definietely had some experience with this. I dont ever initially approach but I have did too much too soon after they made their interest known and when your anxious and you want this to happen, its hard to sit back because when you sit back all these thoughts run into your head that its not gonna work out so you try to make sure it does work out by doing too much and then of course losing the guy because of it. It really does turn most men off. It sucks that it does but if you want to be in a relationship, its best to be aware of that. The thing about playing the game, Bunny said it best here:

    As for the game thing, I just say that life is a game. We’re all playing a game to some degree as we go about our daily lives. This idea that relationships are supposed to be free of that dance humans do is simply wishful thinking or a flat-out denial of real human behavior.

    VERY TRUE.

  63. Alee,
    That’s so sweet! We could totally do a photo shoot with hot outfits and hair! It’s not fair that you have the major advantage of getting to know me through my videos and site. I really can’t hide, especially after someone see’s how corny I am in those videos…lol. You should do videos Alee!!! Or post up a picture! :)

  64. I am clingy and insecure, but I’ve noticed that my clinginess and insecurity drop if I’m with someone who does care about me. Someone who reciprocates the feelings and the attention. I get very clingy when I feel like the person is not into me, because it makes me feel there’s something I should do to make things better. This never works and it only ruins things. Regardless of a guy’s first interest (and there was always an interest since I never chased guys or even approached them).

    But I don’t think this is gender specific. Many women hate when guy seems too into them too soon. It’s very difficult for an anxious person to know how to behave here. That’s why I think anxious people dating avoidant types is not the best combination.

    That being said, it’s sadly true in life (even apart from romantic relationships) that the less you care about people, the more they respect you. This is something I’ll never understand.

  65. Mira,

    “I’d rather be happy than to keep my pride”

    I guess for most people, pride and happiness are attached. And for some they are very attached.

    “I’m not saying I like to be humiliated; in fact, I take it very badly and it’s not fun at all. However, I’d always rather try and fail (even if it means to be humiliated) than not try at all.”

    After a few times trying and failing (or even one), a lot of people will not bother to try anymore. Once bitten…

    “it’s sadly true in life (even apart from romantic relationships) that the less you care about people, the more they respect you. This is something I’ll never understand.”

    I understand it, though it doesn’t make me feel particularly happy about humans.

    But one doesn’t have to understand it, just know it and act accordingly. :D

    Jess,

    “if you know you really like someone and its sincere, theres no harm in waiting a little bit to express just how much you like them, show interest but still keep your cards close to your chest in the initial stage.”

    Agreed.

    It is especially hard for anxious types. But especially for anxious types, it is important to remember that.

  66. Nikisha,

    Your videos aren’t corny. They are quite nice and you seem mature and serious in them. They’re unlike your online persona.

    I would do a video or post a picture but who knows what people would do with that and how they would judge me. I have many reasons to be weary of online friends and acquaintances.

    Plus I think not interjecting myself into the things I create allows people to view it as its own entity, not Alee’s Stuff ™. When someone happens on my writing I don’t want me to bias their opinion of it. It’s not about me, after all (unless it is); I think your stuff is different because it is about you.

  67. But one doesn’t have to understand it, just know it and act accordingly. :D

    I disagree. It’s impossible to act the right way if it’s something that goes against your own logic and sentiments. If you don’t understand how people react you won’t be able to act accordingly. You have to feel most of this stuff (how to approach a guy without being pushy, when to call him, when not to call him, when to have sex with him, etc.) If you wish to play the game and not to do what you’d like to do, you need to know how to behave in order to provoke a certain reaction from the guy. It’s borderline impossible to do if you don’t understand it.

    If you’re a person who’s not attracted to people being distant and making you chase (and let’s face it, many guys play hard to get an want women to chase them), you won’t be able to play this game.

  68. ^You’re thinking too deeply about this…You don’t have to understand most things to do them (possibly you might, but you’re thinking too deeply!). There are rules of dating (e.g. three date rule) you could easily be told, look up, or mimic and just do them without understanding why these things are done.

    Actually, a good amount of the time people do things, they don’t understand what they’re doing or why. They just mimic what they see others do and what is “normal.”

  69. I know, but I was talking about myself. I can’t do this. Seriously, I can’t.

    And I’m sure I’m not the only one.

    Also, I don’t really think there are particular and strict dating rules. Maybe only one: you need to know how to recognize when it’s not working and move on. That’s difficult and almost impossible to do. But these things: who should chase and whether (s)he should chase, when to call him/her, when to have sex, when to meet the friends, when to meet the family – it’s all arbitrary. The goal is not to play the game, I think, but to recognize what kind of a person your partner is. Playing the game on the wrong person might ruin everything, just like not playing it with certain people will ruin everything.

  70. Nikisha: Congratulations!!!

    Alee: Yes, isn’t that story crazy when you look back at it? However, when Mr. Self Aware and I we first met (and he did more pursuing than I did, so even he fits our conclusion), he talked a lot about believing in continual self-improvement, personal growth, getting rid of emotional boundaries and truly sharing all about oneself with a partner and not holding anything back… and he was among the worst of the bunch I’ve ever dated.

    So yeah, let’s just say that when I saw similar nasty, passive-aggressive behavior developing among men with similar thought processes, I definitely cut things off quickly and developed a conclusion in my mind about those types of guys. People could call that unfair, but that’s my experience and I’m sticking to it.

    Jessica: I’m with you… I don’t think a man has to chase in a way that looks like he’s an annoying puppy dog, but he should show just enough that he’s interested in being around me and spending time with me. Also too, what was hard for me was the men who did start the pursuit or chase, only to back off after a while when I started to show how interested I was. I began to realize that until he began asking for a commitment, all of that initial chasing/pursuit was meaningless, and I still needed to tread carefully.

    The cool thing though was that there was only one dating experience in my life that never made me feel anxious or nervous or feel I needed to “do something”… and that was with the man I ended up marrying… which lets me know something right there!

  71. The cool thing though was that there was only one dating experience in my life that never made me feel anxious or nervous or feel I needed to “do something”…

    This, x 1000.

  72. Agree with Mira, thats a great quote Bunny, I might write that down. We as women put ourselves through so much drama all unnecessarily cause when its the right man, its never that hard.

  73. Alright, I’m jumping my ass back in here. If someone values you only when you are indifferent to them, that makes them silly as far as I’m concerned and a waste of my precious time!

    As far as revealing your feelings are concerned, I think you reveal them when they are appropriate. Saying “I love you” to someone you’ve know a week is ridiculous – YOU DON’T KNOW THEM! If a man came to me with that before I had know him at least 6 months I would roll my eyes at him. I do think it is perfectly appropriate to say to someone something along the lines of “You know, I have really enjoyed our time together so far, and I’m looking forward to more adventures with you”.

    And finally, as usual, Ms. Bunny broke it down for us with her marvelous musings.

  74. Sherry

    “Alright, I’m jumping my ass back in here.”

    Lol. Feel free. No comment limit per post.

    “If someone values you only when you are indifferent to them, that makes them silly as far as I’m concerned”

    I don’t think it’s so much that people only value you when you’re indifferent. It’s just that if you care too much and do too much that they begin to value you/your caring less.

    There’s an econ term that is escaping me right now, but describes it pretty well. Basically that the more you consume something, the less of an effect it has, even it’s something that was very enjoyable at first.

    “If a man came to me with that before I had know him at least 6 months I would roll my eyes at him.”

    Lol, well I always say wait and see. 6 months is still the honeymoon period. You’d be surprised how much feelings can change from then to roughly 2 years. All those “I love yous” drop off steeply after that time period for most people who probably were just very infatuated.

  75. I do agree with Smartacus to a certain extent. I personally find the chasing game a game of hypocrisy and the “damned if you do damned if you don’t” paradox. It is hypocrite because I’ve seen so many times girls that act all lady like and are “hard to get” then don’t hesitate to jump the first guy when they feel like. So let yourself be chased so that you don’t lose at this game is as good as your hormones are under control. It is a stupid immature game since if you walk up to a girl and start chatting she’ll think you are a weirdo (not all the time but for the most part) if you don’t you’re an idiot who lacks confidence. I personally met my future wife through friends and she gave me subtle but clear cues that she liked my company – it didn’t take ages either. In two days after we met we were going out and now this is a five year old history (we are planning to get married this summer) – so here no stupid chasing no game playing. We were just being mature adults honestly letting each other know that we liked each other. So to those that get into this game DON’T walk away, there are plenty of gals and guys out there that will be your match. If you start a relationship based on mind games and pride you are on the wrong foot. Do chase if you want one night stand.

    By the way I am 20 something with a graduate degree.

    Best of luck to all.

  76. Hi T,

    “if you walk up to a girl and start chatting she’ll think you are a weirdo”

    …No, she won’t. It really depends on how you approach her. If you come up to her out of nowhere asking questions about her or seeming all nervous, then she might think you’re weird and bothersome.

    If you approach her with lines and gimmicks, she’ll think, “Okay, whatever.” If you approach her in a friendly manner, just making casual conversation about something and don’t see too much like you’re hitting on her, you have a much better chance. It’s not like men never talk to women they haven’t been previously acquainted with.

    Some women get hit on every day, so pretty much have a “pick up” blocker on all the time. So if you approach in a different manner, you’ll have a much better chance.

    “I personally met my future wife through friends and she gave me subtle but clear cues that she liked my company – it didn’t take ages either”

    What stands out here to me is that you, not your girlfriend, did the initiating and moving things along. She just gave subtle hints. So it fits what we’ve been saying all along perfectly.

    How long it took or how hard it was isn’t really the point. The chase doesn’t have to be a long, drawn out game nor does it have to involve much work. Like I said previously, women don’t run very hard if you chase them…

    “If you start a relationship based on mind games and pride you are on the wrong foot.”

    If you try to start a relationship with a guy you’ve chased, that’s when you’re on the wrong foot. :D

    It’s not so much about pride (although that’s certainly part of it for some), but making sure you get the desired result. If the result women desire is a mutual relationship then the thought of pursuing men should leave their minds completely because it does not work.

    But again, women can do whatever they want. This does seem to be one of those things you have to experience and learn before you really get it.

  77. Excellent post! Yes, it doesn’t tend to work out when women pursue men. The men think the woman has something wrong with her (she is desperate) and they devalue the relationship. I wish guys would just think back and remember the times when they were pursued and how those relationships ended up. It just doesn’t work!

  78. Hi Elegance,

    Completely agree, especially on the looking back at past relationships.

    Btw, I’m sooo busy this week and early next week, but I just glanced over your blog and it looks awesome. I definitely need to take some time out to read some back posts.

  79. Women do not want to chase men for fear of rejection and failure? If women feel this way, why wouldn’t men? Why should men have to make themselves vulnerable to such things if women are not willing to?

    If women chasing men causes the males to devalue the females why wouldn’t the adverse be true? Wouldn’t a woman who gets pursued by men but has never done any pursuing herself behave the same? Or are we going to believe that all women are immune to the ideas that men develop?

    This is a two way street. This primitive idea that men must always chase women is hypocritical if you justify it with the reasoning you have provided.

  80. Lucien,

    If you haven’t got the answers to your questions from the post and the 80+ comments that came before yours, well, there isn’t anything to say.

  81. Alee: “There’s an econ term that is escaping me right now…”

    Law of diminishing returns, one of the few things I remember from my economics class from the late 1970s.

  82. jrd,

    Yes! That’s the one — the Law of Diminishing Returns (my econ teacher would snatch his A right back from me, hah).

    If anyone wants to learn more about it, just watch what happens when a woman pursues your average man. Excitement from the guy at first, then tank.

  83. I surprised my self when I figured this out. Women play hard to get when you chase them. It puts them in a position of power which they will continue to protect from start to finish of any relationship. By Paying zero attention to a new woman I found that I can make extremely attractive woman chase me by totally ignoring them. Firstly a woman does not want to be caught looking at you or checking you out so let her look with out staring at her all the time. Make her feel invisible and very quickly her massive ego and will have her trying to grab your attention. She will value it when you have taught her it does not come easily.

  84. Eddie – Great post! As one who was “rejected” out of this game years ago, I give you lots of credit fir finding a strategy that worked for you. Not knowing any success in this mess, I would think that you always enjoyed the”chase” where it became a great burden for many other guys. Good luck!

  85. As knowledgeable as all of you are and quite detailed with your arguments and observations, I can’t help but find the dating business with all these rules and what’s socially acceptable to be pretty fussy. Like there’s too much emphasis on what you’re not supposed to do and what you’re supposed to do and all that timing, I thought dating was just to have fun and just getting to know people even if it doesn’t work out. But I’ve never dated before and from what’s described about the dating scene, it just sounds bland and forced, but maybe I’m misinterpreted with what you guys are saying here. I mean how are you going to getting to know someone, develop a sound relationship, let alone trying to have fun with all this that sounds almost like b.s..

  86. Mistress Habanero, it can be a bit complex. When you enter other factors like social class and race into the equation, it becomes even more crazy. But everyone doesn’t abide by these “rules” and even if they do, many eventually do get through the gunk to form solid relationships.

  87. The reason why a woman might get rejected by a man when chasing him isn’t because the act is wrong in itself, it’s simply because WOMEN SUCK AT IT.

    Here’s what happens:

    Women are completely unaware of the sheer amount of social training and rejection that men must face in order to get good with women (which happens because women barely ever approach men) so when women for once decide to try it out themselves, they fail on the first try, but since men will approach them regardless of whether they do it themselves or not they’ll just take the cowardly way out and give up, while blaming men for “not wanting women to approach them”.

    So there you have it girls. Now get out there and practice. Come back when you’ve gotten rejected 500 times before you tell us guys that it’s impossible for women to do chase men, because getting good at “chasing” in a non-threatening and attractive way takes a load of practice and hard work – something that women apparently aren’t willing to invest out of sheer laziness.

    Welcome to the man’s world – where we have to do all the heavy lifting.

  88. Gol,

    I’m pretty sure the women that have approached tons of men (for instance, me) would disagree with your notions. And I’m sure most men haven’t approached 500 women.

  89. Seems as if women should avoid the chase because, in many cases, misogyny still reigns supreme.

    I suppose you could say that if a woman tries to get into the chase a man will usually be there to force her off the road somehow.

  90. Froggie, I wouldn’t even say it’s misogyny. It’s just that people still have fairly traditional expectations when it comes to the dating realm. Often times, even when they don’t think they do and claim to be fairly liberal, their automatic responses aren’t so much.

  91. Alee, then I will just say that they need to open up their minds and think beyond their horizon.

  92. @Mike,

    Comments like yours are precisely the kind that do not get approved, I regret ever approving in the past, and will never be approved in the future.

    You apparently can not calm yourself down long enough not to personally attack someone because you disagree with their views. Your “I’m not trying to insult, but here’s an insult (and another and another)” method is clear and not appreciated around here. Disagreeing is not the issue, attacking is; any points you had were lost in your uncouth approach. Belittling of others is not welcome, so thanks but no thanks.

  93. So women should NOT chase ( approach or initiate with) men because it does not work the other way around? Oh, please! I KNOW that the pickup artist instructors and women can come up with a better reason that that.Keep trying!

  94. I find its a total waste of time chasing a women it has never worked for me , i can never tell if they are interested if there are signs then i cannot see them ,so I just do my own thing and be my self , I am always polite and courteous , I always get a smile or a laugh when chatting , it’s seems to be just pot luck if any thing else happens

  95. The reason they tell women not to chase it’s cause if a woman is ugly (or he has his eye on a prettier Woman) then the guy will never give The ugly woman a chance no matter how educated or talented or great personality she has.
    She is doomed if he don’t find her attractive.
    And its ok for men to chase Women cause men always want that woman Who’s out of Their League.
    So its totally ok for him to stalk her and annoy her.
    I say life is short and do what makes you happy if a woman wants to chase then let her , she gave it the old try and he Wasn’t into her but she can feel good knowing she tried.

  96. Agreed with much of the article. However, I will say that I believe much of it is hardwired into our very biology. Evolution would have required a man to chase, because the associated attachment would help ensure that he would stick around to nurture and support a family. Chemical brain responses to initial first attraction are an important first step to falling in love. A women, in turn, is largely attracted to a man whose devotion and commitment is apparent and willing. The women depends, from an evolutionary perspective, on such a strong commitment from the male.

  97. Right, Ms. Sarah – Guys should do the chasing because it is “hardwired” into them to pursue the women and NEVER leave her high and dry with a bunch of kids. maybe his showing devotion “act” was a ploy directed at some other part of her anatomy!

  98. I think, Mr. Dave, that you’re somewhat spinning my words out of proportion – I didn’t say “never” leave the kids, did I. It’s not that they should do the chasing, it’s that evolution has had an impact on a women’s needs and a man’s wants, such that in many cases they DO do the chasing. Devotion early on is likely to be lust (yes, in large part directed to some other part of a females anatomy), which may follow in attachment. This attachment is not just directed at some other part of the females anatomy. Rather, it’s what we consider love. And it’s the foundation for more effective procreation (again, from an evolutionary perspective).

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